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  • Transmission Information & Noise Guidance

    Original thread link


    TRANSMISSION NOISE

    FORD MODEL A


    Symptom: Noise from transmission, effected by clutch pedal movement.

    Clutch Throw Out Bearing Noise: high-pitched rubbing noise with only slight
    pressure on clutch.

    Pilot Bearing Noise: high-pitched noise when clutch is fully depressed.

    Noise When Clutch Pedal Depressed:
    -throw out bearing, worn, damaged, inadequately lubricated
    -pilot bearing (in flywheel) worn, damaged, inadequately lubricated
    -crankshaft end play should be checked

    Noise When Clutch Pedal Released:
    -Transmission oil level low
    -Misalignment of transmission (more noticeable at low road speed)
    -Clutch disk hub loose
    -Clutch disk springs weak, popped out of cage, or broken
    -Weak or broken return spring on throw out bearing sleeve
    -Sticking throw out bearing sleeve (clean slider, lubricate)
    -Transmission roller bearings worn, damaged, inadequately lubricated
    -Transmission gear damage.

    Other deceiving noises that can “travel” include noise from speedometer cable, starter Bendix, generator bearing/bushing, and water pump bearing.

    Firstly, adjust the clutch for one inch of free play. If noise is eliminated, good.

    Secondly, grease the throwout bearing sleeve. If noise is eliminated, good.

    Thirdly, if noise is still present, the transmission will need to be separated from engine. Best to remove rear end and drive train, unless major engine work is required and, if so, then take it out as a unit with the engine.



    Notes:
    1. This is to diagnose noise coming from transmission and does not address clutch drag/slippage/chattering/pulsating/slippage out-of-gear/lock-up.
    1. The Model A transmission takes three “needle” or roller bearings and two sealed bearings. "Needle"/roller bearings should have their axles poking through their collars, not set into dimples in the collars.
    1. On my two rebuilds I used Bratton’s for parts and cannibalized a decent cluster gear set from an old transmission. Snyders and Berts have received many favorable comments on their transmission parts over the years, also. Buy quality and buy it once. Inspect what you buy for small rust spots (too long on the shelf).
    1. Strongly recommend reading Tom Endy’s articles on the Model A Transmission, found here: http://www.santaanitaas.org/technica...tech-articles/
    1. Good pictures of transmission components can be found by purchasing a set of Model A Shop drawings from MAFCA here: https://mafca.com/cart/index.php?productID=177
    1. Vince Falter’s FordGarage has an informative, animated video on transmission gear changing created by a VFF member, here: http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/modlintransmission.htm
    1. I discarded my failed needle bearings years ago without taking pictures. One bearing had disintegrated into a handful of rollers with damaged end rings.
    1. Most rebuilders strongly recommend against using STP in a Model A Transmission.
    Last edited by BudP; 02-11-2018, 04:06 PM. Reason: I have been advised by excellent authority that "needle" bearings, while descriptive, are better referred to as roller bearings. The main catalogs describe them as roller bearings or simply

  • #2
    Schwalms cutaway engine / trans!
    3 ~ Tudor's
    Henry Ford said
    "It's all nuts and bolts"


    Mitch's Auto Service ctr

    Comment


    • #3
      Transmission jumping out of gear?

      Original Thread




      First the FW housing must be properly dialed in. This has been discussed many times, and there is a section in tech which explains this. Your gears need to be good gears. You can try good original gears if you can find them.
      Usually, most of the internal tranny parts are so worn that everything needs to be replaced anyway. Use only the gears made by the Mark company, which is what most of the suppliers have.

      So, with Miles' restored slant, I had dialed in the FW housing myself and did a total overhaul of the tranny (new bearings, new sliders, new cluster, etc etc); so I felt confident this work had been properly done.

      Well, so it jumps out of 3rd going downhill ! Now that is not nice.
      I borrowed a known 'good' tower and swapped it out, and same thing!

      I decided it was time to take a VERY close look at the tower. Hmmmm, it was not as good as I thought.
      Third has such a small amount of throw that you need to be sure the parts in the tower are TIGHT, ie, it needs to be ALL THE WAY in gear, else it will jump out.

      You need to wiggle everything around and check for wear points.
      What I found:
      1. the 1/2 " ball at the end of the shifter was good. If not, this can be welded and ground down
      2. the 2-3 shift rail had wear at the notches.
      3. the 2-3 shift fork was worn where the ball engages
      4. The split rivet holding the fork to the rail was sloppy
      5. The detent seemed weak

      So, I installed a new shift rail, new fork, had bought new plungers, but honestly, the old ones fit the notches better, so I stayed with them. I had bought a new detent spring, but the old one seemed stronger, so I used that, and added a 1/4" ball bearing to stiffen things up more. I used a split pin instead of the rivet, the suppliers have them, I felt it was a tighter install

      Test drive: revealed the problem was solved.

      Ride safe out there

      Comment


      • BNCHIEF
        BNCHIEF commented
        Editing a comment
        Sometimes even the smallest thing can contribute to a bigger problem, at least he is in good hands.

      • Jim Mason
        Jim Mason commented
        Editing a comment
        A lot of wear on the 2nd-3rd shift fork is caused by driving with your hand resting on the shifter.

      • Dennis
        Dennis commented
        Editing a comment
        Ah semi's. I never used a clutch unless from a stop taking off or coming to a stop. People that have never driven a truck just shake their head not understanding why. After I finished rebuilding mine I had 90% of the people ask me why I didn't spend the money on a Mitchell or later syncro trans. Sometimes I just like things the way they were. In a Model A, lots of times those original parts fit and feel better than reproduction as I found out a couple months ago when I rebuilt my original trans. A lot of better original better parts I found were from swap meets. I have parts from 3 different shift towers in mine, and some parts I welded up with my TIG for a better fit. I was going to only replace everything that was for third gear and run the marginal gears for first and second, but changed my mind and and replaced near everything except reverse and tailshaft. The shafts for reverse idler and countershaft with an oring were touchy getting in without slicing the orings, but massaging them while slowly tapping with a BluePoint 2 oz. got them in. It sure is nice to finally see a dry transmission.

      • Jim Mason
        Jim Mason commented
        Editing a comment
        Good parts are still out there.

      • Mitch
        Mitch commented
        Editing a comment
        Dave thats good to know that the extra check ball does not over stiffen it and make it hard to shift..

      • tbirdtbird
        tbirdtbird commented
        Editing a comment
        Nope, works fine. Near as I can tell, that detent may be the only thing keeping it in gear, 'cause there sure isn't much else.

        Other trannies from other marques I have worked on sure had way stiffer detents than what I described above.

        I am convinced the factory springs were more robust, and are just getting tired. I am equally convinced the re-pop springs are weaker than OEM, and if you look at the wire size, you can see why

      • Jerry Kzoo
        Jerry Kzoo commented
        Editing a comment
        We had a trans seminar a while back in our club and had suggested putting a rivet nested in that spring as well to stiffen up the force on the detent. We had a hard time finding a washer at the hardware that would fit inside, but found a rivet that was near perfect size.

        Jerry

      • carolinamudwalker
        carolinamudwalker commented
        Editing a comment
        Not related to tbird's original post but we have trouble getting people with original TX to downshift early when in the mountains. Brake fade takes over and they cant downshift. Scary when they are behind you. Every night before I go to bed I crawl under my car and kiss my F-150 TX . Bob

      • BNCHIEF
        BNCHIEF commented
        Editing a comment
        Mountain driving is a whole different deal try it in a semi with chains on in donner pass, who says your life is boring.

      • tbirdtbird
        tbirdtbird commented
        Editing a comment
        BTW I tried 2 ball bearings but it was too much, I could not get it all back inside the casting

      • tbirdtbird
        tbirdtbird commented
        Editing a comment
        OK, since I haven't been demoted to criminal court yet for my tranny post, I will tell you the rest of the story, and none of you are gonna believe this. But that is fine since I can't believe it myself.
        This tranny (with the tower which ended up having a boatload of worn parts) would jump out of gear going downhills ONLY if someone were in the backseat!

        When you can explain that I am happy to send you a case of your fav suds

      • Terry, NJ
        Terry, NJ commented
        Editing a comment
        The Trans in my coupe, leapin' lena, would jump out of gear at the drop of a hat! I'm new at this and wasn't knowlegable enough to know what I was looking at. I rebuilt the tower but it really wasn't bad. I welded the ball at the end of the shifter and hammered it to size and shape (forged)and finished it with a file. The shifting was excellent, but it still jumped out of 3rd! This meant I have to remove the trans. I took the trans out, disassembled it and discovered excessive wear on the input shaft where it it engages with the 2nd and 3rd slider gear. I didn't dial the fly wheel cover in (Like I should have). I trusted the previous rebuilder to have done this before me. A little older, but wiser, I have this car apart again (rear end) and I will take the time and trouble to indicate the surface of the FW cover, which I suspect is out of spec. Why else would a perfectly good input shaft show signs of a lot of wear at this point?
        Terry

    • #4
      Basic parts that should be included in a Trans Rebuild,, By Tom Endy

      Check out Mr. Endys other top notch trans & technical articles.



      99B3045D-9040-4CA9-A2B8-80F2D5B1E899.jpegF0686F70-A90A-458F-B16B-5DD4E90B4EA5.jpeg
      3 ~ Tudor's
      Henry Ford said
      "It's all nuts and bolts"


      Mitch's Auto Service ctr

      Comment


      • #5
        Transmission Specifications

        Gear & Shaft Material Chromium alloy steel

        Gear Ratios
        High-1:1 (100%)
        2nd-6.89:1 (53.8%)
        Low-8.75:1 (32.04%)
        Reverse-26.7%

        Bearings
        Main shaft front (ball) 1208;
        Main shaft rear (ball) 1306

        Transmission Case Length 6.560" to 6.565"

        Case Front Bearing Hole 3.1497" to 3.1507" diameter

        Case Rear Bearing Hole 2.835" to 2.836" diameter
        3 ~ Tudor's
        Henry Ford said
        "It's all nuts and bolts"


        Mitch's Auto Service ctr

        Comment


        • #6
          Clutch Specifications

          Material Molded asbestos composition

          Pressure Plate Weight 15 pounds

          Clutch Disc Weight 2-1/2 pounds

          Pivot Pedal Pressure 30 pounds

          Clutch Facings 9" diameter, 9/64" thick

          Inside Diameter 5-3/4"

          Total Acting Surface Area 75 square inches

          Clutch Pedal Clearance 3/4" for multiple disc, 1" for single

          Clutch Release Bearing Hub 2.065" diameter

          Clutch Throw Out Bearing B7580 or B7580T

          Clutch Pressure 1100 pounds
          3 ~ Tudor's
          Henry Ford said
          "It's all nuts and bolts"


          Mitch's Auto Service ctr

          Comment


          • #7
            5BA1802E-A28D-4CBA-BA7F-B2B243B93680.jpeg
            3 ~ Tudor's
            Henry Ford said
            "It's all nuts and bolts"


            Mitch's Auto Service ctr

            Comment


            • #8
              I don't think I posted this picture before, and as I recall I took this at the Gilmore Model A museum in Hickory Corners, Michigan. It's in high gear.

              Tranny Cutaway.jpg

              Comment


              • #9
                Does your trans pop out of gear?

                Original thread link


                The very first thing to do is to remove the shift tower.
                The parts there may be so worn that it is never fully going into second.
                Here is what can be worn out:
                1. shift forks, look for wear marks, compare the 2 forks
                2. the rivet pins that hold the forks to the rails can loosen over time and thus not give you full throw
                3. the rails can be worn where the notches are
                4. the detent spring can be weak
                5 the detent plungers can be worn



                I have worked on towers that ALL of these problems at the same time.
                Do not use rivet pins when you reassemble, use split pins, they are much stronger.
                When I rebuilt Miles' tower, I had trouble getting quality parts.
                I ended up at Bert's, he had re-pop forks that were PERFECT in size, and he had the split pins
                I only had to replace the 2-3 shift rail, the other was good. You could see the notch had been widened on the 2-3 rail. And I only had to replace the 2-3 fork
                I am not convinced the repop detent springs are as good as the originals. Try to get a good original, from Bert's, he has a lot of quality used parts. In addition, I added a single 1/4" ball bearing to the spring tunnel to make the detents even more positive.

                As far as any of the repop springs, I am not convinced any of them are any good. For example, the cam plunger repop spring is no where near as strong as the original

                I actually did not end up using the re-pop plungers, either, in my case the originals had a much better shape to them (they were not worn) and fit into the notches better

                While you have the tower off, carefully inspect the gears for chips and other defects. Be sure to look at BOTH sides of the gears, since one side wears on accel, the other side wears on decel.

                You did not say, does it pop out on accel or decel?

                Good luck. My experience is that 90% of pop-out problems arise from the tower..
                If the tower is perfect, and the gears are good, then you have to begin to think about the 2 roller bearings inside the cluster gear.

                Drain the case and see if you get back a large amount of metal chips/filings. A small amount is normal.

                I would not drive the car until this is fixed, the wear will continue at a rapid rate.
                And whatever you do, do not drive the car by holding the lever in second gear to keep it from popping out, which is what the PO may have done, this will destroy the tower parts in short order

                Comment


                • #10
                  One thing that bothers me is the worn undersize ball that can jump around in the shift pattern and even (Extreme) cause going into two gears at once. I like to weld the ball up and forge and grind it to size. First you weld it, I used MIG wire (Not my first choice) and then formed it on the anvil. Forging compresses the metal and toughens it. With a little grinding here and there as needed, to shape and size the ball. IIRC, the slot the ball must slide in is .500 +.Miking the ball and just giving it a slip fit into the slot on an angle (Very important! Make sure you're using the same angle that the shifter works at, not perpendicular!) If you don't fit it to this angle the shifter might bind on you. So when you're satisfied that it will fit nicely and move freely, if you have access to Kasenite, case harden the ball end and you're done. I lost my Kasenite a while ago so I have to do without and it's working fine, but it would make me feel better if I had been able to harden it.
                  Terry

                  Comment


                  • Tom Wesenberg
                    Tom Wesenberg commented
                    Editing a comment
                    As mentioned, check the second gear for being loose on the shaft. It should slide on the shaft, but not rock back and forth at all if you try to twist it on the shaft.

                    If you have to pull the tranny, then is a good time to check the flywheel cover for being properly dialed in.

                  • tbirdtbird
                    tbirdtbird commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Terry mentioned one thing I forgot, the ball on the end of the shifter has to be .500 round. Any parts that are worn will prevent the gear from fully engaging and it will jump out.

                    We weld up the ball if worn, the we stole an Idea from Tom W, we use a washer with a .500 ID to use as a standard as we grind the welds down carefully

                • #11
                  I had a second gear popout problem recently and did the tower spring tension improvement with no luck. I decided to pull the trans and go further after feeling the second third slider on the main shaft. As it turned out the gear was loose on the shaft. I went down to my local dealer and picked up a shaft and tried a new gear they had, and it was sloppy. I told them if I can't find a gear that fits without slopping around on the shaft I'll return it. I had bought a new gear on the original rebuild and found it was sloppy on the new shaft also. Did some more digging in my parts stash and found a used gear that fit snug. Reassembled and trans works perfect. In the past I read somebody posted Henry suggested replacing the shaft at the same time a gear was replaced. That poster claimed it was Henry's way of selling more parts. Maybe so but the bottom line you can't have a gear that has slop on the shaft. That goes for first reverse gear also.
                  Last edited by Dennis; 06-04-2018, 06:38 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    If the transmission vent hole on the shift tower gets blocked with crud the fluid will foam and leak out..



                    115E1671-5409-4B45-A023-1F490484E44B.jpeg
                    3 ~ Tudor's
                    Henry Ford said
                    "It's all nuts and bolts"


                    Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                    Comment


                    • #13
                      I have a problem with oil seeping out the top of the shifter and the weep hole. Recent rebuilt. I blame it on oil that does not have anti foaming additive in it. I bought it local because of n the past oil was damaged in shipping. I haven't looked for anti foaming additive. Can anybody suggest what to use?

                      Comment


                      • Mitch
                        Mitch commented
                        Editing a comment
                        What about draining it out and using the right stuff.

                      • Dennis
                        Dennis commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I'll have to take a chance the next order of bottles don't rupture in shipping.

                    • #14
                      Transmission Stand!

                      Original thread

                      I made this transmission stand to use for assembling.
                      4-3/4 90*fittings
                      3-3/4 tee fittings
                      6-5'' 3/4 pipe
                      1-3'' 3/4 pipe
                      1-2'' 3/4 pipe
                      1-3/4 coupler
                      assemble, sand blast, then powder coat.

                      Michael
                      Michael
                      1928 speedster
                      1929 closed cab p/u
                      1930 standard roadster
                      1931 deluxe tudor sedan
                      1967 ss/rs conv.camaro

                      Comment


                      • #15
                        3 ~ Tudor's
                        Henry Ford said
                        "It's all nuts and bolts"


                        Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                        Comment


                        • #16
                          Model A transmission, how it works!

                          Original Thread

                          As a new Model A owner I have been scouring the Internet learning everything I can about the Model A. This is by far the best video I've seen. Thanks, George Bell, for taking the time to make such an awesome video. Makes perfect sense now.


                          Comment


                          • #17
                            More transmission noise information!

                            Question:

                            I am having a not so unusual problem of a growling transmission. The cluster and both sliders appear to be brand new as do the roller bearings, etc. (The transmission was a gift.) I'm restoring a (hopefully) show car, a February 1928 Sport Coupe. I've changed out clusters and sliders to the point of major frustration, but so far I'm not having success. First and second gear are loud. Third is quiet. My question is, why do gears make noise? What is the phys- ics? That's what I really want to know. Too close tolerances? Too loose tolerances? Obviously, rough, worn and pitted tooth surfaces will do it. But why new gears? I'm pretty sure looseness shouldn't do it, because the drive shaft gear mating with the drive gear on the cluster is a bit sloppy and it's as quiet as can be. The noise with the original new gears is not terribly loud, but unacceptable. Do you know of a source of gears which will not growl? Or am stuck with the trial and error method?

                            Answer:
                            The Model A transmission has square cut gears vs. helical cut gears in later models. The square cut gear will al- ways be noisier than the helical cut gear. If the square cut gears in the Model A are not kept precisely aligned, more noise will be generated from them. The two slider gears were originally matched fit to the main (spline) drive shaft. This allowed the gears to maintain perfect match up and alignment with the cluster gear. If the slider gears fit too loose on the splined drive shaft, there will be some binding of the slider to cluster gear. Binding creates a growl. Wear in a lot of areas will add up and cause misalignment of gear match and transmit noise. The fit of the end of the main drive shaft into the flywheel pilot bearing must be a snug fit.
                            Many times the end of this shaft is badly worn from spinning inside the pilot bearing instead of the bearing doing the spinning. This wear and loose fit causes lateral movement of the shaft, thereby placing a tilt and misalignment of the transmission drive shaft. Also the flywheel housing should be true with the flywheel and crank with no more than .006" variance. I have seen flywheel housings warped to more than .020" variance. This causes a real stress and misalignment of the drive line. I do not know if the new cluster gears are machined correctly for correct fit and clearance of gear teeth contact. There must be adequate (about .005 to .008 ) clearance (backlash) of the gear mesh. A quiet transmission requires a straight alignment of the drive line, a precise fit of the two slider gears on the splined drive shaft, a snug fit of the drive shaft in the pilot bearing on the flywheel, and no more than .006" variation of flywheel to flywheel housing. I hope this gives you a little better understanding of what causes a noisy transmission. It doesn't take much wear in the wrong place to cause a square cut gear transmission to get noisy. That's why they went to a helical cut gear, in addition to the synchromesh.
                            A side note: A correct fit slider gear to splined drive gear: apply 600W oil on the splined shaft and set the shaft up- right. Place a slider gear on the shaft and the gear should slide down the shaft with some resistance, i.e., take about 1.5 seconds to fall. If it drops straight down on the shaft with no drag or resistance, its an inadequate fit.

                            Les Andrews, Technical Director
                            3 ~ Tudor's
                            Henry Ford said
                            "It's all nuts and bolts"


                            Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                            Comment


                            • #18
                              Originally posted by Mitch View Post
                              More transmission noise information!

                              Question:

                              I am having a not so unusual problem of a growling transmission. The cluster and both sliders appear to be brand new as do the roller bearings, etc. (The transmission was a gift.) I'm restoring a (hopefully) show car, a February 1928 Sport Coupe. I've changed out clusters and sliders to the point of major frustration, but so far I'm not having success. First and second gear are loud. Third is quiet. My question is, why do gears make noise? What is the phys- ics? That's what I really want to know. Too close tolerances? Too loose tolerances? Obviously, rough, worn and pitted tooth surfaces will do it. But why new gears? I'm pretty sure looseness shouldn't do it, because the drive shaft gear mating with the drive gear on the cluster is a bit sloppy and it's as quiet as can be. The noise with the original new gears is not terribly loud, but unacceptable. Do you know of a source of gears which will not growl? Or am stuck with the trial and error method?

                              Answer:
                              The Model A transmission has square cut gears vs. helical cut gears in later models. The square cut gear will al- ways be noisier than the helical cut gear. If the square cut gears in the Model A are not kept precisely aligned, more noise will be generated from them. The two slider gears were originally matched fit to the main (spline) drive shaft. This allowed the gears to maintain perfect match up and alignment with the cluster gear. If the slider gears fit too loose on the splined drive shaft, there will be some binding of the slider to cluster gear. Binding creates a growl. Wear in a lot of areas will add up and cause misalignment of gear match and transmit noise. The fit of the end of the main drive shaft into the flywheel pilot bearing must be a snug fit.
                              Many times the end of this shaft is badly worn from spinning inside the pilot bearing instead of the bearing doing the spinning. This wear and loose fit causes lateral movement of the shaft, thereby placing a tilt and misalignment of the transmission drive shaft. Also the flywheel housing should be true with the flywheel and crank with no more than .006" variance. I have seen flywheel housings warped to more than .020" variance. This causes a real stress and misalignment of the drive line. I do not know if the new cluster gears are machined correctly for correct fit and clearance of gear teeth contact. There must be adequate (about .005 to .008 ) clearance (backlash) of the gear mesh. A quiet transmission requires a straight alignment of the drive line, a precise fit of the two slider gears on the splined drive shaft, a snug fit of the drive shaft in the pilot bearing on the flywheel, and no more than .006" variation of flywheel to flywheel housing. I hope this gives you a little better understanding of what causes a noisy transmission. It doesn't take much wear in the wrong place to cause a square cut gear transmission to get noisy. That's why they went to a helical cut gear, in addition to the synchromesh.
                              A side note: A correct fit slider gear to splined drive gear: apply 600W oil on the splined shaft and set the shaft up- right. Place a slider gear on the shaft and the gear should slide down the shaft with some resistance, i.e., take about 1.5 seconds to fall. If it drops straight down on the shaft with no drag or resistance, its an inadequate fit.

                              Les Andrews, Technical Director
                              Yikes! Even during the read, I’m asking myself, “why does my car still work?”

                              Comment


                              • #19
                                Transmission rebuild info
                                http://jmodela.coffeecup.com/xmissionrebuild.html
                                3 ~ Tudor's
                                Henry Ford said
                                "It's all nuts and bolts"


                                Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                                Comment

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