Differential, Rear end stuff

[Terry, NJ]

Today I bit the bullet and ordered a new 3.54 gear set from Brattons, only $465. Throw in new 4 (Timken a4221n) new bearings for $160 and the cups/races for$100, gaskets, etc, shipping and the bill is $720 + OUCH! However, I had called my favorite bearing house (Trans Bearing Inc, Wall twnsp, NJ)and the price on the bearings was over $45 @. It was good to see that Walt was not charging as much as the bearing house!
Next I went and continued dissembling the rear gears. There are 9 3/8 bolts that hold the carrier together. The nuts came off with out any problems but the bolts had to be driven out. Two of which had gouges on the side of the bolt, right through the threads. I'm wondering what I should do about it. I ran a loose die over the threads and put them in the drill press (Vertical lathe) and cleaned the burrs from the gouging off the outside. I'm thinking of running a 3/8 reamer through the bolt hole. Any suggestions?
Terry

[Terry, NJ]

Finally came to a decision about rear gears! I'm gonna buy a set of 3.54s and the bearings (OUCH!) at $38 @ ($160) cups, $25 ($50) 2 sided cup, $51 gears, $465 assorted little stuff $25. And then drive myself nuts assembling this collection of stuff. Inch Lbs are not a problem. Figuring out what gets torqued 20 In lbs is. If it's those two big nuts on the pinion, it may be! Is that the preload on the bearing? Or is the 20 in. lbs the torque on the locknuts. It seems like it would be the preload on the bearing, but these parts are too expen$ive to be guessing wrong. Then, How do you measure inch lbs on a nut that big? Or do you just guess? (Two ft lbs?) Stay tuned, more to come!
Terry

[Mitch]

The easiest thing to do is print out Tom Endy's differential rebuild article.

http://www.santaanitaas.org/technical-reference/tom-endys-tech-articles/

FWIW
I can do these rear's mainly by feel, since the preloads are so little.

[tbirdtbird]

"The easiest thing to do is print out Tom Endy's differential rebuild article"

It is also the ONLY thing to do. The 20 in-lbs is not the big nuts, it is the bearing preload

Go here, and be sure to read ALL his diff articles, each one has additional info and additional pix.
I found it far easier to just have them printed out

http://www.santaanitaas.org/technical-reference/tom-endys-tech-articles/

while you are ordering the bearing supplies, be sure to get 2 of the big thin wrenches you will need for the big nuts.
There is no cheap way out of this

[BNCHIEF]

I can do them by feel as well but a torque wrench that reads in inch pounds will help you get there I was thinking it was 25" pounds but Tom Endy's artice is a great source.

[tbirdtbird]

even better, once you have the parts, haul everything along to Brent's workshop

[Mitch]

Curious Terry
How did you decide on going with the 3:54's over the 3:27?

[Dennis]

Best to get your bearings from Brattons IMHO. They have Timken and not some off brand no numbers no identification where they were made.

[Big hammer]

Just don’t get the preloads to tight!
Enjoy your overhaul, your on the right track with new parts :-)

[Tom Bellfoy]

Terry: Make sure you do a lot of research about setting the pinion properly to mesh with the ring gear, reason is I have been researching it and found that since the 3:27 and 3:54 are aftermarket, there is a good chance you may have to add shims to move the pinion back. I'm certainly not qualified enough to offer my opinion as I still consider myself a back yard mechanic, however at the cost of the conversion I suggest a lot of research. Currently I am waiting for my 3:27 gears to arrive. Currently I have my diff all torn apart and waiting for the aftermarket gears to arrive.

[JDupuis]

Been a few years since the last one I did. Have done 3. What I remember most time consuming was setting the back lash. Good luck. Jeff

[Mitch]

We have two different threads going with the same title. A little confusing

[DaWizard]

Terry, if you have the tooling, I would mic the offending shank of the bolt and ream the holes to just clear.

[Mitch]

Terry i am moving this to the main A discussion

[Mitch]

Terry i don’t want to get to far ahead of you, but make sure your carrier bearings did not spin on the diff carrier. This is a common problem that will require a lathe

[Terry, NJ]

No! the bearings are tight. Getting the bearing off is a problem now. I haven't taken the carrier apart yet (I don't want to get too far ahead, I took 6 of the 9 bolts out) so I took the right side bearing off but not the left, yet. It was not a loose fit. Not having the correct tools, I improvised with a small cold chisel and got it off with out marking the carrier up. This may seem stupid but there's some evidence that the carrier may be hardened. I think I may have ruined my .375 reamer on the holes and the chisel didn't make much of a mark on it.

[Dennis]

You might have been hitting the ring gear with your reamer.

[Terry, NJ]

OK, the carrier is not hardened! and the left half, upon closer inspection, the bearing is turning. I'll take a half from the other unit. Knurling parts in a lathe is only a "Quickee-fix-meup" I think I have two good ones in the other unit. Dennis, I think that's exactly what I did!

[Mitch]

The proper tools for the job

https://www.vintagefordforum.com/forum/model-a/technical-reference/49309-snap-on-puller-set-for-the-powertrain

[Terry, NJ]

Mitch, I know, I know! I should have one! But at this point in life I want to get rid of some of these tools , not buy more

[Terry, NJ]

Well, the parts arrived yesterday (Tuesday, ordered Monday) and I'm afraid I may need more. Walt doesn't seem to carry the .005 brass shims and there's the axle seals. Aside from that, what am I looking for with the contact pattern with the Prussian blue for the meshing of the ring and pinion? Should I indicate for lateral runout after I assemble the ring and carrier?

[Tom Wesenberg]

If you have an older Motor's Manual, they show good pictures of contact patterns. I'm sure a Google search would also show some.

[Mitch]

Terry
If your bearings did not spin on the carrier (as i mentioned earlier) you probably won't need the shims. The shims are not brass to my knowledge FYI

[tbirdtbird]

true, they are not brass.

Again I would caution anyone overhauling a rear end to follow Tom Endy's articles to a "T" and do everything exactly as he states. He is your "get out of jail free" card. Else, you will be trapped by misconception and myth

There was a guy on another forum a few years ago who was not Tom Endy who claimed to be a rear end expert and had written up an overhaul article for , guess, the Restorer!
He followed his own advice and within a short amount of time his own rear end had failed, and he was asking questions on the forum. He had never heard of Tom Endy. When it was pointed out that Endy was the ONLY way to go, he quickly disappeared from the forum never to be heard from again

[Mitch]

Terry forget the rear

Did you get a VFF flyer with your order?

[CM2]

anybody ever use 'stud and bearing mount' chemical instead of the machine shop for loose bearings? Ive used it with good results,belzona too..belzona is spendy however

[tbirdtbird]

CM, is stud and bearing mount a loctite product? Like sleeve retainer?

not familiar with belzona

[Mitch]

I have used the green bearing mount loctite product. On the Model A carriers with a spun bearing after milling it we knurl the bearing mount & use loctite.

Never heard of belzona either

[CM2]

http://www.belzona.com/en/products/1000/1111.aspx high dollar two stage epoxy..its machinable,we used it on backhoe booms,take up a 1/4 inch slop in a bushing bore,mix,slide in the bushing assemble the boom,let it cure.works good in captured operations,like building up a carrier to hold a bearing,mix,coat the carrier stub,assemble and let it cure.

[Terry, NJ]

Uh, CM, you do what with backhoe booms? Do you mean that stuff will take up a 1/4 of slop in a backhoe boom and NOT chip and Crack out? Freakin unbelievable! My joints are tight yet (There a little rattle and shake but no where near 1/4 inch, maybe 1/32) but this is good to know about!

[CM2]

Not only on backhoe boom but excavator booms between the boom and the dipper..basically goop in the bushing,slide it into the boom and slide in the pin to hold it aligned while it cured..
3 1/2" pins. with a bushing or a bearing the belzona is always in compression,it cant 'crack out', its captured. Amazed the shit outta me,I thought it was bullshit too.

[Dennis]

Terry, now that you have the axle housings off the banjo check the race that it is not loose and spins in the axle housing. I have found the bearing set will be loose on the driver side more often than the passenger side.

[Terry, NJ]

You know your stuff! Yes, It's the left (gear side, driver's , left) of the carrier that the bearing is loose on. I'm still cleaning parts so I haven't checked the race/cup yet. Hey, I notice on the bearing box that it says do not remove from bag until ready to assemble, what's that about?

[Mitch]

We mentioned twice already about to checking for loose carrier bearings. You said they were good on post #5.

[Terry, NJ]

Mitch, When I first pulled it apart, they both seemed like they were tight. Then I was moving the bearing and the race started to move. Not much, it's not loose, but its not tight either. I don't consider it to be usable.

[Mitch]

Terry i never reuse any old bearings or races in a rear or trans. Do it once do it right. You need to see if the bearing that is loose spun on the carrier perch and wore a groove.

[Dennis]

"I haven't checked the race/cup yet" Yes, when I was working on equipment we called a tapered bearing a *cone* and a race a *cup* The terminology for cars seem to be different.

[Terry, NJ]

Mitch, Me too! No I don't want to reuse the race. OR the carrier half. I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear. I have 2 rears to harvest parts from and the other one I haven't checked yet but indications are that the parts are good. I also rarely re use bearings, but not in a rear. This is just too frigging much work, taking the rear out again because I thought I could save some money. I want it right the first time!

[old31]

I never heard of Belzona.

Just watched the videos and did some research. Wow, what a product. Too bad the 1111 isn't made in small quantity's to get the price down. Expensive stuff, but I can see the payoff for its use.

Kind of like a JB on steroids.

[Terry, NJ]

How much is it? I tried to find a price , but couldn't. Yeah, What a product is right! If it lives up to advertising!

[Terry, NJ]

Spent yesterday (Sat.) cleaning the old grease (Man, that was ugly) and pushing the races out. The Diameter of the wheel bearing journals is 2.263, How worn is this? I can't recall ever seeing a size on this. The axle hole seems too large, but then, it's not supporting the axle. Can someone provide the dimensions?

[Mitch]

So your talking about the axle housings? and the carrier bearing races?
The axle is supported by the hub and bearing at the drum side. The axle will float and have movement where it comes out of the axle housing.

[old31]

Terry, I just found this post from a 6 year old post. Originally the price I saw on 1111 was about $200. with a 3 year shelf life.

https://www.morganscloud.com/2012/07/20/saving-the-day/

I called Belzona USA (305) 908-9672.
The marine repair kit is @ $700.
4 kilos of Marine Metal is $352, has a 35 minute pot life, 5 year shelf life, fillers not recommended with their products.
#1111 is similar to Marine Metal, 400g of product for $91. Needs good surface prep, machines ok, 10-15 minutes pot life.
#1831 use this where good surface prep is not possible, sticks to wet & oily surfaces, 1 kilo of product $210.

[CM2]

its worth every dollar...if the repair is worth it to you..excavator handles and booms run in the tens of thousands of dollars,folks feel a few hundreds spent on a compound is worth a try.and feel extraordinarily elated when it does as advertised..

[Bob C]

Spent yesterday (Sat.) cleaning the old grease (Man, that was ugly) and pushing the races out. The Diameter of the wheel bearing journals is 2.263, How worn is this? I can't recall ever seeing a size on this. The axle hole seems too large, but then, it's not supporting the axle. Can someone provide the dimensions?

If you are asking about the inner race for the rear wheel bearing at the outboard end of the trumpet I think you need to remeasure. According to my bearing interchange the wheel bearing ID is 2.0625.
I measured one of my trumpets and got 2.062. To check the wear measure at 6 and 12 oclock and then 3 and 9 and take the difference.

Bob

[Terry, NJ]

Bob, I'm done for the night! Tomorrow I'll mic it again. I didn't write it down (Bad Move) The bearings that interests me the most right now are the carrier.
Mitch' Guess I'm gonna need a drop or two of the green Loctite! The old bearing slid on the it too. (The other one) In other words, I have no good carrier, ring gear side, parts They're not very bad. But they're not tight.

[Mitch]

Bob, I'm done for the night! Tomorrow I'll mic it again. I didn't write it down (Bad Move) The bearings that interests me the most right now are the carrier.
Mitch' Guess I'm gonna need a drop or two of the green Loctite! The old bearing slid on the it too. (The other one) In other words, I have no good carrier, ring gear side, parts They're not very bad. But they're not tight.

Terry if your carrier bearings do not fit tight you need to knurl the perches plus loctite them. Do not count on just the loctite to hold alone. You never answered the question about if the bearing spun and wore the perch stop

[Terry, NJ]

I went out and miked the "Perch" on the carrier today, Used two mikes and Surprise, Surprise! I got two readings. My old Starret said 1.5725 but my hardly ever used Swiss Etalon inspection mike said 1.5734. Almost .001 difference.This bearing was loose enough to move (Not loosely) by hand pressure only. I don't have a set of Intramikes. Maybe my old set of bore mikes would do an accurate enough job on the bore of the bearing, don't know! What is the bore dia. of a A4221 N bearing. I have looked but have not found it. If anyone can provide it, I'd love to know.
Terry

[CM2]

Its your choice on how you fill the void between the bearing race and the carrier,either by compounds or machine knurling.Most model a issues transmit across production,a failure noted in a used part will show up in other used parts as well.Only luck renders the pristine part.

pay careful attention to the dimension you are filling,don't exceed the manufacturers recommendation for fitment,you will be unsatisfied with the results.

[Mitch]

Terry if the bearing slides then knurl it. Put the mic’s away
I mentioned this 5 times already but make sure the bearing did not remove metal on the seat perch from spinning. Usually it does, then you need to mill about .010 off the seat and add 2 shims which are .005’ each

[Terry, NJ]

I'm installing the new bearings. The bearing is tight (Or going to be). Where in Bucks Co can I get the green loctite. There is a version of it that (#39150) that comes in a 9 gram stick for $11.
Terry