Cooling System Information

[tbirdtbird]

One method to clean a water jacket


The pix are self explanatory. Be very careful working with lye, keep it off your skin and eyes. I bolt the adapter I made to the inlet with a copper gasket. I carefully fill the water jacket to about an inch from the top with a strong lye solution. The lye gives off lots of heat when mixed, use cold water and mix it up little by little. Let it sit in the block for a week. The head is off, obviously. After a week, put a bucket under the hose of the inlet fitting hose, and open the valve into a bucket. Neutralize the lye with a half gallon of vinegar. Now you have a bucket of water where you once had lye. This can be done with the engine in the car. Work carefully to avoid getting lye into the cylinders; it will destroy your babbitt in a heartbeat. At ACE hdwe, anyway, you can still get lye, have to ask because they keep it behind the counter. Use the other fitting which attaches to your garden hose. open the valve carefully to flush, you don't want a big rush of water. Use the bowden cable sheath in your cordless drill, (stiffer than a speedo cable) and massage that thing all over the place, especially behind #4 and between 3&4. Flush with water again. Repeat until no more rust or scale comes out. The rust/scale shown I just got from a friend's block. It is only a small fraction of what I got out, the rest managed to wash away down the driveway.

This is tedious but you will have the cleanest water jacket in the county, and your radiator won't clog up when that crap breaks lose on a longer/hotter run. Be aware that the lye does no harm to the cast iron at all.

Machine shops used to have a large hot tank filled with lye solution and soaked blocks in it. The EPA got a hold of all that and now all bets are off. Clean it yourself, that way you will know exactly what you have.

A link to all the replies in this thread::

https://www.vintagefordforum.com/forum/model-a/7729-one-method-to-clean-a-water-jacket

flush fittings.jpglye.jpgdrill and bowden.jpgrust.jpg

[Tom Wesenberg]

Back Flushing The Cooling System

To do a good cleaning of the Model A cooling system, you need a good strong flow of water to dislodge the junk in the rear of the block, and to remove the junk laying on top of the radiator tubes. Even after running vinegar for 30 days in my Model A, I wanted to give it a good back flush, so I removed the radiator and turned it upside down then back flushed it with a sump pump. I used a large radius 90* elbow, so as to not impede the flow. I then connected the pump to my engine and flushed it out also. I got a lot of rust particles out of the system by doing this. I'm sure just running a garden hose wouldn't have done much for the system.

What you see in the tub is just a small portion of the rust that came out. I changed the tub of water at least 5 times. This was a few years ago, and I haven't overheated it since.

[Mitch]

Maybe a dose of evaporust then your power flush would be a good combo also.

[Tom Wesenberg]

If I have to do this again on an engine, I will use Evaporust for the block, and rinse the radiator first in gas to remove any grease. The vinegar did work for me, but it made quite a mess also. Someone recently posted about a product like Evaporust, but it costs much less. I'll have to see if I can find the name of the product.

[SAJ]

Some time ago on "Another Barn" it was suggested to use phosphoric acid and not vinegar in the block. Vinegar, being acetic acid in water, forms acetate salts with rust etc. Almost all acetates are water soluble, so can be washed out. Phosphoric acid forms phosphates and Iron phosphates are insoluble and cannot therefore be washed out unless loose. They are very likely to be locked onto the interior surfaces of block and radiator.
So my opinion is Vinegar and evaporust (which forms soluble iron complexes with rust) and Rust911 plus many other soluble iron complexing agents are the ones to use.
My roadster and Diane's Tudor both run at 160 Deg with thermostat in and about 140 Deg without thermostat.
I used a "flush gun" with water and compressed air bursts to back flush mine and insects and lumps of rust came out after my cleaning treatment.
SAJ in NZ

[Dennis]

After reading all these comments I bought a gallon of Evapo-rust on my way to home depot last night. Was cleaning shock links and arms, nuts and bolts and dumped them in the bread pan while I was painting my shocks. Cleaned up around the garage and checked on them a few hours later. Wow!! I'm sold on that stuff. Wish I would have tried it long ago.

[Mitch]

A link to all the replies in this thread::

https://www.vintagefordforum.com/forum/model-a/1932-back-flushing-the-cooling-system

[Mitch]

Taken from Marcos Barnyard Web site!!!!

Technical Tip - Model A Overheating

Overheating
Model A overheating seems to be an increasing problem in recent years. Although the intent of this page is to emphasize something that has nearly faded into obscurity, more common issues will be touched on briefly.

Let me start with the common issues in order of frequency and significance.

1. Radiator - There are multiple problems encountered in this area. Seventy years of corrosion buildup in the engine block will rarely be cleaned adequately during an engine rebuild. Particles continually dislodge within the water jackets and work their way to the top of the radiator and block tubes. Back flushing the system will remove most of the recent deposits.

Loose radiator cooling fins dramatically reduce the effectiveness of the radiator. The fins were originally attached to the tubes with solder. Anywhere the fins are loose on the tubes, the heat cannot dissipate from the tube to the cooling fins.

Many replacement radiators and cores have an insufficient number of tubes and fins. This means they will never cool as required for normal operation. For original configurations see the following table.

Year / Model	Tubes	Fins
1928-29 models	94 round tubes in four rows*	Six fins per inch (all)
early 1930 "AA" truck	132 oval tubes in four rows
1930-31 models	102 oval tubes in three rows
late 1930-31 "AA" truck	136 oval tubes in four rows
*Most common of three types

Don't be fooled by flow testing! Flow testing your radiator as suggested in several publications will only confirm EXTREME problems. You can block more than 1/3 of the cooling tubes on an original radiator and pass the flow test. The reason for this is the lower water outlet of the radiator is the restrictor. It is designed to limit the speed the water travels through the tubes. More time in the tubes equals cooler water.

2. Ignition timing - There are generally two problems in this area. First, modern timing gears lack the deep impression required to easily locate top dead center (TDC) of piston #1 with the timing pin. This can easily be corrected with a 1/4" drill or countersink bit prior to installation. I've heard a few creative methods for doing it later and containing the timing gear chips created during the process, but can only recommend removal of the front timing cover to be sure the correct location is drilled and the chips contained.

Second, as simple as it is to properly set the timing on the 'A', I find that very few people set it correctly. Most of those with many years experience are fortunate to get within a few degrees, but this is usually adequate to avoid overheating.

3. Fuel mixture - Running with the fuel adjustment too lean will also contribute to overheating.

NOTE: Retarded timing and lean mixture will only CONTRIBUTE to overheating. When these conditions are present the car will provide sluggish performance.

4. O.K., now for the obscure! As shown in the drawing at the top of the page, there is a baffle cast into the block to direct much of the water to the rear of the engine before being drawn forward by the water pump. It originally had a small passage to allow a small portion of the cooled water to flow directly towards the front to cool cylinders 1 & 2. In early-mid 1929 the size of this passage was nearly doubled in size to 5/8" wide to improve overall cooling. Following this change, service letters were sent by the various branches to their dealers. This included instructions to grind the baffle to the new dimension when complaints of overheating were received and all the usual checks were made.

I've done this with a small pneumatic grinder and rotary file. It provided some gain in overall cooling.

[Tom Wesenberg]

The next time I install a used engine with the head in place, I will first flush it while it's on the engine stand. That way it can also be flushed while it's turned upside down.

[Dennis]

The next time I install an engine whether it's been rebuilt or not, I'll install a GANO filter. And I'll make sure it has a GANO filter before I put a radiator back on. I blew out with compressed air, pressure washer 3100 psi for about 2 hours yesterday before flakes and sediment stopped flowing out of my block. It had been soaking with Evapo-rust for 10 days prior to that. I seriously doubt the rust problems will ever end...

[Jim Mason]

Lye dissolves organics. like grease, skin, eyes, mucus membranes. acids will react with rust, inorganics like lime and also with the above mentioned organics.

[Mike V. Florida]

So for the best results, several flushes with different solvents/cleaners should get the engine internals nearly spotless.

[BNCHIEF]

I cleaned my block and radiator with evaporust for 9 days i let it soak did not get a lot out of it but now i know the block is good and clean as well as the new brassworks radiator. I used a sump pump and bought a sump pump hose 15.00 from the hardware store hose was 16' long and made to be cut in 4 sections i cut it in half and made up fitting for the engine and radiator. Just used a hose to fill radiator but it clean right up. I will fill the system with distilled water for a good flush before adding good clean anti-freeze mix. I did flush this block in both directions to try and make sure i got everything.

[Mitch]

For thermostat info please reference this thread in the Tech section

https://www.vintagefordforum.com/forum/model-a/technical-reference/20821-thermostat-information

[Dennis]

Cooling system filter:

Anybody else use a coolant filter to keep the nasties out of the radiator core? I've had a lot of trouble with rust flakes from my engine that sat for 37 yrs full of rust flakes. I've chipped, done the wiggle wire reaming, has been sand blasted where it was visible, sat for weeks with evaporust, and pressure washed recently. I knew some would eventually pop loose and find their way to the radiator core because there always seems to be one that shows up. I've recently done some major engine work on a stand turning it over several times and when I took the adapter off the side there it was, a flake the size of a dime waiting to be brushed out. So I decided to try a gano filter in the upper radiator hose to catch them. Problem was the screen was beginning to tear in the middle. I don't know why it was doing that, no large flakes were trapped or passing through. I soldered the brass screen at the middle so it wouldn't tear anymore until I could get my stainless parts made. All of that volume of coolant flow might have been too much, I don't know. So I made my own screen, only I made it using stainless wire mesh. It's in 2 separate pieces in the upper radiator hose. It's less restrictive and much stronger, but there's always room for improvement so I'm going to try a different size mesh. Currently both are #8 mesh, the next size finer mesh will be #10 stainless. I bought both the screen and 2" stainless tube from amazon. I recently had it out to fix a leaking gasket at the inlet connection and there was no sign of failure or abrasion. I think it might last a lifetime.

ORIGINAL THREAD!
https://www.vintagefordforum.com/for...oolant-filters

[tbirdtbird]

clever way to indent the screen, i like it!

[Dennis]

I just pulled the engine and of course the screen. Like I've said in the past, the flakes will always be passing through. I'll take pictures later of what was in it this time. tbirdtbird, that stainless screen is some pretty tough stuff.

[Mitch]

ACF5B58B-2C25-447D-93B4-85C1432B290B.jpeg

[Dennis]

Definitely an early 28 engine.

[BNCHIEF]

Ok here are some of the pictures of my water filter set-up. I made a couple of hex threaded nuts to fasten the water pump tight at the top and they are long enough to bolt the bracket to them on the front side as you can see. I added the drop down filter set up for oil on the other side which meant a little change in the fuel delivery set-up to my weber.

[Mitch]

Radiator Specifications

1928 Manufacturer Ford

1929 Manufacturer Flintcock, Long, McCord

1930-31 Manufacturer Ford Standard Radiators 1928-29

Tubes Flat 1/2" seamless

Number of Tubes 101 in 3 rows, staggered at 9/16" centers

Number of Fins 5 fins/inch-98 fins

Core Size 19-3/4" x 19-1/8" x 2-3/16" centers

1928-29 Heavy Duty 8 fins/inch-158 fins



Standard Radiators 1930-31

Tubes Flat 1/2" seamless

Number of Tubes 95 in 3 rows, staggered at 9/16" centers

Number of Fins 5 fins/inch-100 fins

Core Size 20-1/8" x 18" x 2-3/16" centers

1930-31 Heavy Duty 8 fins/inch-167 fins

[Mitch]

Lower radiator neck specs. 30-31

radneck.jpg

[Mitch]

Brassworks Radiator Issue Fixed

Link to thread

[Mike V. Florida]

Lower radiator neck specs. 30-31

radneck.jpg

clean neck.jpg

[Mitch]

More back flushing info!

146D4CC9-50D4-44D6-928E-92F0974101D2.png

[40B1930]

Mitch, how would you ever manage keeping Lucy pristine if she needed a good flushing as discussed on this thread?

[Mitch]

I would pop the radiator out and deal with that separately. Then there would be ample space to flush the block as needed.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Another flushing apparatus!

Original Thread

Pressure flushing is certainly beneficial for removing loose solids.

I'll throw in pics of my "flush kit". About 30-35 years ago I just grabbed some stuff from Home Depot. I had fun stretching the hoses over the closest size fitting I could find. I believe the left one is to 1/2" female pipe thread and the other is 3/4" pipe and pipe to hose end adapter. I have quick-connects on all may garden hoses so that explains the brass fitting. This back flushes and the clear hose goes out over the rear of the fender and into a bucket.

Obviously (I think) I remove the water return pipe and hoses from the car.

[Mitch]

Scan0294.jpgScan0295.jpg

[getgood]

Another flushing alternative!!!


BDB2893B-B2EF-4150-9CE2-1285E1C12B20.jpeg

Had most of the plumbing from previous projects left over/re-purposed. The Base PVC is a 1-1/2” end with a 3/4 threaded reduction. Elbows and extensions are all 3/4 to accommodate normal garden hose adapters. Only thing I bought was the valve ($7.50 @ Ace)

wrapped duct tape around one base end of 1-1/2” PVC pieces to accommodate the larger upper radiator hose.

Used a little grinding on the other 1-1/2” base end to help get the old lower radiator hose on - secured both with the Fords clamps.

Worked pretty well for what I was trying to do - only lesson learned was I would buy a metal valve - the plastic valve was leaking at the base of the red knob. And wait until after 7:00pm when it cools down to 100F.....

[Jim Mason]

Cooling System Seminar

[Mitch]

Engine Pans

v10i6p28.jpg

[Mitch]

F8E78D72-EC82-44D1-8D47-1A3A581C5E9E.jpeg

[DaWizard]

F8E78D72-EC82-44D1-8D47-1A3A581C5E9E.jpeg

This is great advice and what I did was drill a small hole in the baffle since I couldn't see the bottom of the baffle. Now the little hole tells me when I am full.

[Mitch]

Antifreeze

7A020EFE-8A9C-4C2A-AEA9-0C42E09CFA2A.jpg