Cotter pin Info / No time for fine point

[CM2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgmspemaOJg

This has been around but its still interesting to note the speed of production,cotter pins bent correctly? 'yeah sure,maybe on the next one'

[CM2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HNblfHUDU0

another one thats been around,but gives you an idea of the line speed of A assembly

[Mitch]

https://www.vintagefordforum.com/art...factory-videos

They were already posted in the Articles..

If you find any new ones send them over

Thanks

[Jim Mason]

Interesting thought. they had time to lower a body and line it up or drop in a engine and line up the driveshaft splines but not enough to fold over the two legs of the cotter pins? I'd need more proof...



Here's from the dykes manual

image_6928.jpg

[Mitch]

As mentioned on another thread I do them like #1 in your photo on A's and #2 on modern cars
I went by looking at some original cars

[CM2]

My point isn't how cotter pins are bent,I was using it as an example.My point is how far the judging standards deviate from what was actually produced.Its all good though,I understand the drive for excellence.

[DaWizard]

Ya know Jim, that is exactly how I was taught to use a cotter pin!

[Jim Mason]

I use a small 'button hook' to grab the long leg and bend it up as far as I can, then push the short leg down. the tap both legs with the ball end of a small ball peen hammer.

[Jim Mason]

Here's a photo from a very low milage (32000 miles) fordoor. while not tight, they are all installed 'correctly'. So the standards reflect that the cotter should be installed correctly.

ImageP1020226.jpg

[Mitch]

Jim where does the standards show how the cotterpin should be bent?
Your picture here reflects #1 correct?

[Jim Mason]

A quick search showed the cotter pins should be installed neatly where required
in the front 'judging the model A' section. There may be other references.
The photo shows the heads of the pins parallel with the bolt as shown in no. 2 from dykes. the legs leave something to be desired

[Mitch]

Yea the head always goes into the slot of the castle. The legs are my issue

Now that you mention it I just noticed they were talking about the head in the Dykes. They are not pointing to the legs
I'll continue my way

[Jim Mason]

The arrows point to 'correctly' installed cotters. especially the one on the brake stud. the circled one appears damaged. the head is pulled out, and one leg broken off.

Studio_20180219_132254.jpg

[Tom Wesenberg]

Jim, recheck the circled one. It looks like both legs are bent in the same direction, but one in 180* and the other is only bent 90*.

[Jim Mason]

Jim, recheck the circled one. It looks like both legs are bent in the same direction, but one in 180* and the other is only bent 90*.

Now I see it. One leg is over the end of the bolt

Sorry I hijacked the thread.

[DaWizard]

You all know, that with the cars being 87+ years old, no matter how "in original condition" or how "original low mileage" they are, all of those cotter pins have been changed or replaced at least once in the history of the car. While in my youth I dismantled my share of cars, I do remember the pins pulled tight and folded over the end of the bolt, and was taught to reinstall them the same way, I don't think they should be a point deduction because of installation direction.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I got BANNED from the , for makin' FUN of how Ford bent his KOTTER KEYS!!!---When using a NAIL, there's a PROPER way to bend them, also!
Dad Twisted

[Jim Mason]

I judged undercarriage 4 years running. I've seen the castleated nuts missing, installed with the crenellation toward the head, cotter missing, cotter inserted but the legs not spread, legs wrapped around the nut, wrong size cotter to the point the head would pull through the bolt, and everything correct. the jsc determined where the line in the sand would be drawn. you want to do it different, be my guest. you want your car compared to the standards, follow the standards or loose the 0.5 to 1 point or so out of 500.

[Mitch]

So as long as it’s neat and the correct thickness pin, yer good to go?

[Mike V. Florida]

After all this is the fine point section of the forum.

[Jim Mason]

Don't make the judge make a decision. personally I don't find the loose legs with the correct head orientation 'neat'. the team would have to make a decision as to what is neat and what the deduction would be for 'not neat'. I'll have to read some more to see if the standards are more specific

So far: Page 12 'proper cotter pin installation'. To me that reads 'as shown in dykes' and elsewhere

[DaWizard]

Ok, just to be perfectly clear, that is Dykes #2?

[Jim Mason]

Studio_20180219_161653.pngPinBent.JPG.jpg
Dykes no 2

[Mitch]

Hmm interesting

[canadian]

I was a auto tech for 35 years for a police force here in Canada , guy I apprenticed under took pride in the way a simple cotter pin was installed , they had to look actually like Dykes. was always a issue for him while looking over a repair that a apprentice had performed.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

If someone doesn't have enough Common Sense to bend a Kotter Key, where it won't fall out & holds good, HOW in the HELL can he BUILD a CAR????
Dad Amazed!

[Arcieri]

Here is another opinion on the correct way to install the cotter pins. This is from an article in the March/April 2015 Restorer magazine. Author was Alex Janke. His opinion was this is the way.

[DaWizard]

Exactly as I was taught to do them!

[Jim Mason]

That's the best photo I've seen. it also shows the modern diamond shaped head. the pins from the era were round. I would probably deduct for reproduction part. (I know SOB). here's a pin that is closer to original. I doubt you could tell it us new when installed.
metallics-the-hillman-group-pins-rings-clips-43701-64_1000.jpg

[Arcieri]

Enjoying and learning from this thread. So can we all agree that the pin on the right side of figure three of this photo is the correct one for our Model A's??

[Arcieri]

Here is a close up.

[Mitch]

Where can these original style pins be obtained?

[Dan Partain]

Check ebay, there are quite a few different kits that look pretty close to original. I don't remember where I got mine, maybe ebay, maybe Tractor Supply.

[CM2]

https://www.mcmaster.com/#cotter-pins/=1bnhhnz

[Mitch]

I bent a cotterpin today. Do I get full points? It is hidden by the hubcap

[DaWizard]

Maybe

[CM2]

It's not crisp enough,you need to bend them smartly

[DaWizard]

I will not shame you by going out and take a picture of my axles and the way I installed the pins......

Additional point loss for wrong castle nut! haha

[Dennis]

That nut might be wrong for a 30-31, but correct for 28-29.

[Mark Maron]

I judged undercarriage 4 years running. I've seen the castleated nuts missing, installed with the crenellation toward the head, cotter missing, cotter inserted but the legs not spread, legs wrapped around the nut, wrong size cotter to the point the head would pull through the bolt, and everything correct. the jsc determined where the line in the sand would be drawn. you want to do it different, be my guest. you want your car compared to the standards, follow the standards or loose the 0.5 to 1 point or so out of 500.

Being the Team captain in Undercarriage for MARC the last 6 years running and Asst Chief Judge this year in Branson, I will tell you this. I see it all and we will deduct for sloppy, loose and wrong cotter pins.. Take an extra minute and do it correct and even on your drivers.!!

[CarlG]

Nevermind how you bend them, this is how I store them: (Don't know why the first one is turned sideways, the original wasn't)

[Mitch]

They have the wrong heads

[CarlG]

So?

[CarlG]

They look pretty much like the ones in post #19

[Arcieri]

Quote. "Being the Team captain in Undercarriage for MARC the last 6 years running and Asst Chief Judge this year in Branson, I will tell you this. I see it all and we will deduct for sloppy, loose and wrong cotter pins.. Take an extra minute and do it correct and even on your drivers.!! Mark"

Hi Mark You have given me and many others good Model A info on the various forums. So, is this what you are looking for in this years National Meets concerning cotter pins??

[Mitch]

Arcieri

Ck post #19 out on this support thread. We have a real cool Auto Quote feature here if your on a regular PC.

https://www.vintagefordforum.com/forum/questions-and-suggestions/feedback-area/1328-forum-posting-reading-and-picture-upload-tips