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    Re-Torque head hot or cold.... more info

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    • Re-Torque head hot or cold.... more info

      Tom W in particular will be interested in this.

      The debate, at least in the Model A world, will rage on in perpetuity, despite that the Service Bulletins state to re-torque hot.
      Anyway, I was wading thru my Motors manuals, going back into the early thirties, looking for some total advance comparison from earlier Stude 6-cyl with a 6.5 CR head, to the upgraded 8.3 head that was used in '59-'60
      I am using such a high compression head on the build I am doing. I am going to have to drop the advance back with the HC head.

      I stumbled upon a section about re-torquing. Stude recommended a hot re-torque for a cast iron head (which is the only way I ever knew how to do it) and a cold re-torque on an aluminum head.

      Let the individual owner proceed with his own preference!

      The only thing I can add to all that is be sure to re-torque often!
      Last edited by tbirdtbird; 07-12-2018, 10:33 AM.

    • #2
      Dave do the Studes use primarily a copper style head gasket?
      2 1930 Tudors

      Henry Ford said
      "It's all nuts and bolts"


      Mitch's Auto Service ctr

      Comment


      • tbirdtbird
        tbirdtbird commented
        Editing a comment
        yes, they all did in the early days as far as I know, at least I never saw a non-copper on any vintage I ever worked on, and that is quite a few.
        What did you have in mind? I suspect the type of material may not matter until they came up with the super hi-tech gaskets of the last 20-25 yrs where you torque once and forget it, which is especially good if you have an OHV motor

        Sometime when I run out of things to do LOL I'll look up the specs for some other marques in the Motor books I have
        Last edited by tbirdtbird; 07-12-2018, 10:52 AM.

      • Mitch
        Mitch commented
        Editing a comment
        I guess what I meant to say is when doing a modern replacement such as you are.

      • tbirdtbird
        tbirdtbird commented
        Editing a comment
        Yes the re-pop gaskets we have available are copper and made by Best. In fact the entire gasket set for the motor is made by Best, which is reassuring....

      • Mitch
        Mitch commented
        Editing a comment
        Gottcha thanks

    • #3
      Funny thing about gaskets. When the small block chev came out in 1955 it had shim gaskets for the head. They were just a pice of flat metal with beads to seal the cylinders, every one said that will never work. Well I never seen one blown. So when I put the 455 olds head on my Model A engine that is what I did made some out of sheet stock and rolled beads to seal the cylinders, worked good.

      Comment


      • Tom Wesenberg
        Tom Wesenberg commented
        Editing a comment
        Studebaker came out with their first V8 in 1951. It was an overhead valve 232 cu. in. and I have a pair of the thin shim gaskets for it also. I don't know what Studebaker used when it was built, but the guys on the Studebaker forum talk about using the thin gaskets to raise the compression.

    • #4
      The machine shop I deal with has a theory about the reasons for so many retorques.He is also the first to tell you it is just his theory too,nothing tested or proven.He feels modern materials,like chopped kevlar,while good,are too slippery and slide around until they settle in.He seems to think the old asbestos material has little hooks in it that holds itself from squeezing out,and stays put,just like it does in your lungs.He says the manufacturers reps have told him the old torquing instructions have no place being used with modern materials.He is a believer in cold retorque now,with modern gaskets.With old stock,(pre 1970 or so) he likes to do them the old way.

      Comment


      • Terry, NJ
        Terry, NJ commented
        Editing a comment
        Keith, What old instructions? Which one's are no longer valid?

    • #5
      I think I agree with everything you and he say. With a modern engine like a small block chevy and OHV configuration, and modern hi-tech gaskets (which are NOTHING like our Model A gaskets) you torque it up cold once and you are done. We work on all eras here
      Last edited by tbirdtbird; 07-12-2018, 12:02 PM.

      Comment


      • #6
        I didn't even think about the aluminum head being torqued differently.
        When I put rings in my diesel Rabbit I only torqued the head cold when I reassembled it back in about 1985.
        I don't recall ever checking the torque after that, but it always worked fine.

        Comment


        • tbirdtbird
          tbirdtbird commented
          Editing a comment
          yep, that would be of way more modern design all the way around. For a diesel, they really had to have their act together to hold back that 21:1 compression ratio. Some diesels were lower but I never knew of one less than 16:1

      • #7
        Maybe part of the problem with A is a thin head that can give and not enough head bolts, with a wide thick gasket on the out side of the bore.

        Comment


        • #8
          Here is the thing,

          We are talking about torquing to a number that was never used when the A was new, never even published. If all the nuts are torqued the same, does it really matter if they are 52 lbs or 62 lbs? I won't argue hot or cold but now if you want to talk about loosening the nut an1/8 of a turn before the re-torque that we can discuss.

          Comment


          • #9
            I wasn't directing the the topic to how many ft lbs or loosening, merely hot vs cold

            Comment


            • Mike V. Florida
              Mike V. Florida commented
              Editing a comment
              It's related is it not? I think a better question for discussion would be why hot or why cold.

            • Mitch
              Mitch commented
              Editing a comment
              We usually discuss head torque regarding the Model A. Dave saw something in his manual regarding what they recommended for Studes which use a similar design so he mentioned it. I just did a search " Head Torque" and yes this was discussed quite a bit as Dad said. Maybe I should combine ALL the head torque threads into one huge Tech thread. It might come out to be 20 pages long... lol

          • #10
            I'll be SILENT, this has been discussed OVER & OVER & OVER!!! ----Do what you WANT to do, or what you're SUPPOSED to do!!!
            KDad Deaf

            Comment


            • #11
              I found it curious that Stude agreed with Ford for a cast iron head, then went a step further to separate out aluminum heads. It would be interesting to bump into an old time Stude engineer and pick his brain on the why.

              Mitch if u think this better suited to the off topic area then I won't be insulted if you move it LOL
              Last edited by tbirdtbird; 07-13-2018, 09:23 AM.

              Comment


              • Mitch
                Mitch commented
                Editing a comment
                Not at all. It is Model A related as I mentioned in my 9.2 comment..It's actually new information and thanks for posting it

              • Tom Wesenberg
                Tom Wesenberg commented
                Editing a comment
                I'm surprised an aluminum head torque is even mentioned in Studebaker head torque, as I don't know of Studebaker ever using an aluminum head.

            • #12
              Originally posted by tbirdtbird View Post
              Tom W in particular will be interested in this.

              The debate, at least in the Model A world, will rage on in perpetuity, despite that the Service Bulletins state to re-torque hot.
              Anyway, I was wading thru my Motors manuals, going back into the early thirties, looking for some total advance comparison from earlier Stude 6-cyl with a 6.5 CR head, to the upgraded 8.3 head that was used in '59-'60
              I am using such a high compression head on the build I am doing. I am going to have to drop the advance back with the HC head.

              I stumbled upon a section about re-torquing. Stude recommended a hot re-torque for a cast iron head (which is the only way I ever knew how to do it) and a cold re-torque on an aluminum head.

              Let the individual owner proceed with his own preference!

              The only thing I can add to all that is be sure to re-torque often!
              Maybe because a aluminum head would expand a lot more than the cast iron. If you torqued a alum head hot the same as a iron head, it would make the head torque way low when it was cold. So it could blow a gasket when you first started it up. But this is just a guess.
              Last edited by George Miller; 07-13-2018, 10:22 AM.

              Comment


              • #13
                Originally posted by George Miller View Post

                Maybe because a aluminum head would expand a lot more than the cast iron. If you torqued a alum head hot the same as a iron head, it would make the head torque way low when it was cold. So it could blow a gasket when you first started it up. But this is just a guess.
                I agree totally.

                The other thing that I think most hobbyists do not realize is just how much a cylinder case (block) and head can distort. When clamping a block or head into a Surfacer, it is very easy to distort the piece 0.003 - 0.005 without much clamping force.

                Comment


                • Larrys40
                  Larrys40 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Boy do I agree with that !!
                  Cast iron yes is solid but is also very flexible at times

              • #14
                All you need to know about torquing a head. 7 combined threads that are now in the tech forum. After reading these 6 or so pages of info you may still not know if you should do it hot or cold, or loosen then tighten.

                https://www.vintagefordforum.com/for...ad-gasket-info
                2 1930 Tudors

                Henry Ford said
                "It's all nuts and bolts"


                Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                Comment


                • #15
                  Re-Torque head hot or cold.... more info

                  FWIW: Historical Comment From Sixty (60) years ago:

                  My $25.00 1930 Model A was my first car ...... the engine in it was knocking when I picked it up, and it blew lots of smoke .... lots of initial work required.

                  In asking back then, "all" of the vintage mechanics I knew at that time, (born from the late 1800's through pre-WWII), had the same advice on re-torquing a Model A head gasket:

                  "Re-torque head gaskets after engine has achieved operating temperature."

                  Many of us have experienced lots of life's changes since (60) years ago ..... maybe just me; however, sometimes I think the entire World needs to be re-torqued at operating temperatures.


                  Comment


                  • #16
                    Back in 2015 I was at rich falluca’s engine seminar and a fellow asked the question torque hot or cold ? His answer was that after all the years of the debate and his experience the important fact is “just torque it” .
                    Hot or cold.... I figure rich has torqued more heads and had to stand behind and had rebuilt more engines than any of us... up to that response I pretty much tried both ways and did my own experiments and I think his advise is good.

                    After a head gasket change I generally do it cold first time, run it, then hot 2nd round. Usually cold the 3rd round. Lots of experience out there from you guys but that’s just my 2 cents worth
                    Larry Shepard

                    Comment

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