Car Title

[Roadster Rich]

Wow is this a pain in the butt. I just sold my 1930 Town Sedan to the father of a good friend. He lives in Michigan. I have no title. My father bought it in Florida around 1986, took it to Vermont and registered it there from 1988 to 1991. Vermont does not issue any title to a vehicle older than 15 years from the date of registration, but does demand proof of ownership to register. Therefore I assume they took the Florida title, signed over to him, in order to register in Vermont. I have no title I can find anywhere in his records (died in 2004). Michigan says they will register/title there if I can show proof of registration in another state and a progression from the owners name on the registration to the seller. Called Vermont and they were pleasant enough but stated that they no longer keep any records prior to 2004. Then I decided to try to see if I could get proof of insurance. The insurance company my dad used is a local one, but they said they keep no records of past contracts older than 7 years from the date they ended. Then called Florida to see if they could find a title based on the VIN from the engine. Not possible for anything titled previous to 1978 (40 years) and who knows how long the man owned it prior to selling it to Dad in 1986.

I know some must have faced this kind of issue before, any advice on how I help my friend to get proof for Michigan?

Rich

[Rowdy]

Sounds like a real mess. Vehicle title laws vary so much state to state, that it seems impossible to get through the red tape. I never have understood why states like Vt do not think a valid title is needed. Sure makes a mess in establishing and keeping an accurate record of ownership. Rod

[Tom Wesenberg]

I had to do a bonded title to get titles on two of my Model A's.
After three years, if no claims are made against the car, then a clean title is issued.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Rich,

Welcome to "some" of our Government DMV Employees who are totally brain washed by "some" of our Government Supervisors with only the negative type rules which strictly tell all of us citizens what we "cannot" do.

With 100% occupancy in all of our U.S. Prisons & Jails, and with ever increasing crime on the rise, car theft, plus lately finding out that the Russians were, and are still in control of our elections, appears lately Model A's have been placed on the endangered species list like Bald Eagles and Whooping Cranes.

Transferring harmless, endangered Model A's from one owner to another owner ........ and/or one state to another ........ appears to be Government monitored as closely as transferring Bald Eagles and Whooping Cranes from one State Zoo to another.

A few years back, it took me 20 years to get one Model A Title ..... you have my sympathy ..... please don't ever give up!!

[30Coupe]

The Russians didn't tell me which handle to pull on the voting machine. How exactly did they manipulate your ballot?

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi 29,

This whole everyday printing of false Russian Election Control Crap we hear day after day is nothing more than Liberal Fake News lies trying to convince the World why Miss Monica Lewinsky's most famous and hateful Female White House Rival loss the Presidential Election.

Besides, truthfully, the Russians are too busy having a blast watching many of our U. S. draft-age young potential soldier wimps retreating into crying rooms ..... and many other potential soldiers throwing rocks at our policemen and parading in the streets with signs in protest of the present U.S. Government Leaders ..... really not much different than the beginning of the Russian Communist Revolution Street Riots against Russia's Tzar Nicholas II in 1917. But never give up!

[BudP]

I am going through this process in VA right now for the second time in 10 years for different cars. My "program" is to go through the local office, then get identification of a target office at DMV in Richmond (Lansing in the case of your friend's father), then furnish whatever documentation with a polite letter to that office with copies to your elected state representative and state senator and wait for a response. They will never say, 'It can't be done.' Instead they will suggest a path that will cost you more time, more money for a local inspection, etc. When you respond to their response, do so politely, furnish whatever they want (e.g., another application on a different form, individual checks for the inspection, title costs, whatever-and copy your state senator and state representative. Be polite, responsive and expect about 30 days for them to get back to you. It looks like it's working for me this second time around just as it did the first time around. The DMV sees you not as a customer to be served but as a problem to be resolved. Being polite helps them want to assist you.

[Roadster Rich]

Tom,
Is a "bonded title" available from all states or somewhere special I would need to go to get this done. Sounds like a good way for me to support my friend and give him a contract stating that I will pay him back if, for any reason, we cannot move to a full title.

[Ted Duke]

Rich,
If it were me I would try it. Just tell them honestly what you know.

Ted

https://dor.georgia.gov/sites/dor.georgia.gov/files/related_files/document/MVD/Form/MVD_Affidavit_Supporting_Certificate_of_Title_Bond_Application_MV-46A_0.pdf

[Tom Wesenberg]

Tom,
Is a "bonded title" available from all states or somewhere special I would need to go to get this done. Sounds like a good way for me to support my friend and give him a contract stating that I will pay him back if, for any reason, we cannot move to a full title.

I don't know if all states do bonded titles or not.
I'd try to find a good car guy or club in that state and ask them first.
Ask DMV second, if you can't find a car guy or club.

[1931 Flamingo]

Look into registering it in New Hampshire. I don't think you need to show but a bill of sale AND I believe you don't have to provide a local address. THEN apply in your home state. FWIW
Paul in CT

[Boston Bruce]

From NH DMV page:

New Hampshire does not issue titles for vehicles that have a model year of 1999 or older, except for heavy trucks with three (3) axles or more, or truck tractors whose gross vehicle weight exceeds 18,000 pounds which must always be titled regardless of age. Also, vehicles that are over 25 years of age may only be titled at an owner's request.

https://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/.../apply/new.htm


I work for a NH licensed dealer. Getting a NH title for your Model A won't be as easy as some may think. You are probably going to have to prove ownership and have a NH address.

And this:

Saf-C 1904.03 Antique Motor Vehicle Certificate of Title.

(a) Upon the request of a vehicle owner, the bureau shall issue a certificate of title for an antique motor vehicle.

(b) A properly executed application for title, form TDMV 23, prepared by the local city or town clerk, dealer or lienholder, along with the appropriate fee pursuant to RSA 261:20, shall be required in order for a title to be issued.

(c) Each applicant shall furnish the bureau with one of the following in the order reflected:

(1) A previous New Hampshire or out-of-state title;

(2) A previous New Hampshire or out-of-state original or certified copy of the registration in the seller’s name; or

(3) An affidavit of ownership for antique vehicles, form TDMV 105.

(d) Each applicant who furnishes the bureau with documentation pursuant to (c)(2) or (3) above shall also include a bill of sale for the antique vehicle.

(e) Pursuant to (c)(3) above, each applicant, if not in possession of a previous title or registration, shall furnish the following on form TDMV 105:

(1) Owner's name and address;

(2) Vehicle identification number;

(3) Vehicle's year, make, model, color and body style;

(4) Date of purchase;

(5) Seller's name and address, if known; and

(6) Owner's signature.

(f) If a previous New Hampshire or out-of-state title is not furnished, a properly executed verification of vehicle identification number, form TDMV 19A, shall be required, pursuant to Saf-C 1904.04.

(g) In the event an antique vehicle is purchased by a new owner, a properly executed report of sale or transfer of a non-titled motor vehicle, form TDMV 22a, or similar form from the seller, shall be required, pursuant to Saf-C 1904.05.

[Greynomad]

I see this issue come up with monotonous regularity. Why do you guys stick with such a cumbersome records system? We don't have titles for cars and as far as I know, never did. Puzzled.

[BNCHIEF]

Money for one thing, in kansas used to be you built a trailer highway patrol inspected it and riveted a serial number on it you paid a fee took the papers to a court house to get a title and tag simple, not anymore. Now you have to send them pictures receipts of everything you spent building the trailer and when they finally get around to tell you that you can get it inspected you now have to drag 250 miles round trip for them to give you the ok because they do not have the time to make it convenient or reasonable. However they do not return phone calls or answer e-mails, just have to love how government keeps helping us here in this free country.

[CarlG]

I was expecting a ball of trouble when I went to register my pickup here in Alaska. It had a California title from a previous owner (not the guy I bought it from). 20 minutes and $200 later I was on my way with my "Collector Car" plates and registration. Not even an inspection or request for a certificate of insurance.

[Roadster Rich]

Looks like I will get a surity bond. A littlest expensive than what I would have to go through to register in VT. They have given me a way I could do that but even though it was registered in VT I 1991, I can't prove it, other than the plate with the sticker on it!!! And they dumped all records so they would value the car at some NADA value and cost me $695 to register. I could get a state police afadavit of the BIN in MI. Then the person I sold it to would have to register in MI at 6% again. Kind of disappointing but finally we will get another one back on the road. The smiles it brings to the new owner is worth it to me.

[Tom Wesenberg]

The Russians didn't tell me which handle to pull on the voting machine. How exactly did they manipulate your ballot?

X2
I'm so sick of fake news and their witch hunt. Why don't they report some real news, like Model A restorations going on and national Model A meets.

[DaWizard]

Hear Hear!!

[30Coupe]

Couldn't agree more. I wish that news organizations would just give me the info and let me "decide for myself." And, I'll tell you that if more cool (and down-to-Earth) stuff such as these types of forums and clubs, and their activities, were reported on and spoken of, the world would invariably be a better place!

[Mike V. Florida]

I know it is a PIA but what if an A is stolen in, let's say, Kanas. The thief spirits it away to Vermont. Places an ad and says, my Dad just died and I want to sell his car. Sorry, but there is no paper work. Should it be real easy to register it? What about the guy in Kanas? The important thing is that you can get it registered and the guy in Kanas can have a chance to get it back. Oh, wait a minute, for those that say it's ok to re-stamp an engine, the thief grinds off the engine number and stamps on another number. Now, what happens to the poor owner in Kanas?

[Mitch]

There is no perfect world so CYA with a high agreed value of at least double your investment

[Big hammer]

Not auto related but fits here, I was listening to a late night radio talk show. They had a retired professional
thief on the air. ANYTHING you could do to stop him, he had a way around it. A watch dog, he said they bring good money, a sleeping pill in a meat patty and later he would pick the dog up and your watch dog is gone.
It was an eye opener for me, anything the DJ would ask about, the 40 yr professional retired thief had away too steal, ANYTHING! So sad anything he wanted he would take :-(

[Soapy]

Last year, I sold a car to a fellow in Indiana which I had purchased a year earlier from a seller in California. When I registered it in Michigan, there was no problem at all. I gave them the California title and they sent me a Michigan title. However, the DMV in Indiana required a physical inspection of the VIN number on the car and it turned out that when the car was first titled in California (in the 70's), a clerk dropped a letter from the VIN and no one ever noticed it (including me). Indiana said that Michigan had to correct the error and Michigan said that they needed to inspect it, or have a Michigan police officer inspect it. I asked if an Indiana officer could inspect it and sign the Michigan form and they said no. I asked why, and the clerk said: "Because I said so". It cost me nearly $1,000.00 to go to southern Indiana, pick the car up, bring it back to Michigan, get it inspected (took 5 minutes) and then take it back to Indiana. When I complained in a letter to our Secretary of State, I was told that they were sorry, the clerk was wrong - but they wouldn't compensate me for my loss. Made me a believer in carefully looking at the numbers, I'll tell you. The other thing I learned is not to take anyone's word for it until moving the problem up another level - especially when what someone in authority tells you that doesn't make any sense.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Lucky they didn't make you pull the body off so they could see the frame stamped engine number.

It's probably not a bad idea for all of us to re-stamp the VIN (engine number ) on top of the frame near the steering box for when that day comes. The guy I bought my '36 Ford from had done that when he rebuilt the vehicle.

[BNCHIEF]

Jeff that is a good idea.

[Denis4x4]

I have contacted my local CHP inspector on several occasions and asked him to come to my shop and verify frame numbers while the body is off. Usually cost $25 and the verification slip is golden when I go to the DMV.

[Leo]

Hey Tom, and I thought they only "bonded" whiskey!

[Kevin in NJ]

My father bought the 30 fordor I had from VT.

VT just uses a bill of sale. Send them a bill of sale and they will send you a plate and a registration.
Take the plate and registration to DMV and you will get a title. Here in NJ the lady at first said I was wrong, but the other lady told her to check the book. They have a book with paper work and rules for all the states. I then got a NJ title for the car.

Since it was a VT car I would say you want to start there. You will need an address of a the person in the state that sold you the car.

[Tony Hillyard]

Since the early 1900's in Britain cars have retained their original plate throughout their lives. Since the early 1960's there has been only one licensing authority, The DVLA, so tracing the history of your car is normally fairly straightforward. With some exceptions!

Here in France it's a bit different. Up until just a few years ago each department (there are seventy odd) issued their own registration plates and registration documents (carte grise). So each time a car was sold out of area it had a new paper trail and new registration number. A bit like the US now. I'm convinced this is partly to keep as many civil servants as possible busy and employed. Otherwise what else would they be doing?

Now we are told as a vehicle keeps the same registration number all its' life things will work better.

Last year the powers that be in Paris decided in their wisdom there should be no more visits in person to the vehicle registration office, everything must be done on-line. If you are elderly, do not have a computer or are not computer literate.... tough s**t.

The result..... absolute chaos!!!!

Since then obtaining any official paperwork, driving licences or vehicle registration documents has been like one of these terrible reality shows on TV. People rushing around like headless chickens, following gossip trying to find a shortcut through the mushy mess that is the French administration.

I bought a 1950's MG TD in the UK last January. To get a classic car registration document in France you have to apply to an association in Paris run entirely by volunteers. They do a fantastic job but to have to rely on the good will of volunteers has its problems. You are now quoted thirteen weeks to obtain your certificate of proof that it is a classic car.

Once you have that certificate, then you have the joy of the "official" government system to obtain your vehicle registration document (carte grise).

As I say, I bought this MG in January this year, I applied for various documents immediately I received various certificates or forms. Next week it will be seven months since my original application for a vehicle registration document.

And we are told in the high tech age things will be easier and quicker!

I am convinced it would be quicker to apply for a vehicle registration document in one of these third world African countries.

[JDupuis]

Tony Hillyard
Hey Tony, let me know when you get that paperwork.
Here in Canada, the "ownership" paper stays with the car, and the plates now stay with the owner.
If the paperwork is lost, it really isn't that difficult to get a new ownership. Jeff

[Tony Hillyard]

Jeff, that is far too simple. The rest of the world tries to make everything simpler, in France they try to make everything as complicated as possible. It's something to do with the long lunch hours.

A little true story. Our local town wanted to buy some land to build a reservoir for the town water supply. They bought the land from a local Norman farmer then the town council members went for a long expensive lunch at the tax payers expense to celebrate, rather smug they had done a good deal. Some months later the previous owner of the land turned up at the town hall saying as per their agreement he now intended to remove all the standing timber from the land.

They were shocked to discover the previous land owner, the farmer, had sold them the land but not the timber. It seems the town council members had not bothered to check the contract properly. Too occupied with the thought of a good lunch, no doubt. So, the town tax payers had to pay the same price again for the timber, doubling the overall price for the purchase.

Why make anything simple when you can make it complicated!