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Strange "ARC" from the Heater Manifold...WTH!!!

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  • Strange "ARC" from the Heater Manifold...WTH!!!

    My friend John Samp, a member here installed a manifold heater, the repo from Snyders. Well in the "gap" between the firewall and the heater he also installed a flex tube and wrapped in duct foil to secure any outside air, it works great and the same way i hooked mine up, NOW last night he had the car running and weird...He noticed an ARC coming from the heater to the tubbing. Never saw this before and if you look at the video you can see it also. MY Take is...because we have a positive ground system and the metal tube is not in the heater TIGHT but there to stop heat from escaping the current is Arching to the metal to create the continuity on the positive ground as it is not in there tight again,, would really appreciate any other opinions and if i am correct AND if you all think that he should wrap in either elect tape or duct tape??? thanks all..




  • #2
    Interesting. Electrical tape would work or what about a ground strap attached??
    Paul in CT

    Comment


    • #3
      Oh, now there is the perfect example of insufficient engine grounding! I say run a connection from the battery frame lug to the transmission or someplace on the engine to complete the circuit!

      I'd be willing to bet that after running the new engine ground he will find the engine runs smoother and maybe even get another mile to the gallon.
      Last edited by DaWizard; 03-16-2018, 02:15 PM.
      You wana look waaay far up da road and plan yer route because the brakes are far more of a suggestion than a command!

      Comment


      • Mark Maron
        Mark Maron commented
        Editing a comment
        So your feeling is that the Ground is BAD on this car???? Hence the arc that I described trying to complete the continuity?

      • DaWizard
        DaWizard commented
        Editing a comment
        Exactly Mark. I would even go so far to also say he has been having starting problem when cold.

      • Terry, NJ
        Terry, NJ commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm sorry, I could not see the arc, but there is no mod A today that wouldn't benefit from an auxiliary ground cable. I used a longer bolt through the chassis flange and connected one on the top of the flange and one on the bottom. I would say that it worked out well. It cranks a little faster and longer and it is just generally better. Terry

    • #4
      almost looks like an ignition arc.

      Comment


      • Mark Maron
        Mark Maron commented
        Editing a comment
        i know it does and its just strange totally. OKAY I'm going to have it attach an additional ground from the battery to the tranny bolt!!

      • DaWizard
        DaWizard commented
        Editing a comment
        Bob, I am almost positive it IS an ignition arc. The whole system needs to find chassis, whether it is direct to the battery or via the body, or however it can get there, it HAS to complete the circuit. It wouldn't surprise me to find he has FaM.

      • Mark Maron
        Mark Maron commented
        Editing a comment
        WIZ your saying what Im saying correct...he need a GOOD Ground??? in your post below..4.2

      • DaWizard
        DaWizard commented
        Editing a comment
        Yes Mark, he needs an engine to either battery ground terminal, or where that is hooked to the chassis.

    • #5
      I would take an ohm meter and check the connections at both ends of the ground cable. The original system should work fine without adding another cable. The problem child may be at the cable to frame connection
      3 ~ Tudor's
      Henry Ford said
      "It's all nuts and bolts"


      Mitch's Auto Service ctr

      Comment


      • Terry, NJ
        Terry, NJ commented
        Editing a comment
        Mitch, I hate to oppose anything you say because I know you know your stuff. Heck! You make your living at this! So it's with a lot of trepidation that I screw up the courage to say this, but here goes. Let us stop for a moment and try to reconstruct the pathway to ground. Rusty motor mounts and bold is the main way, Second is the water in the cooling system, third is the linkage and none of these make a really good ground path, At best it's rusty steel not even copper or brass. When model A s were new, and the joints and rivets hadn't collected so much rust and corrosion, the path to ground was much better. This is a good argument for removing all rivets from the frame, cleaning all surfaces and holes and replacing them with bright, shiny, new rivets. Today, 90 years later, that is not the case. I admit I didn't do it and my cars benefited from the extra ground cable.
        Terry

      • Mitch
        Mitch commented
        Editing a comment
        Hey Terry state your opinions anytime that’s what it’s all about. This is how everyone learns here or suspect info gets corrected . Regardless of running an extra ground cable from the frame to the motor a simple check with a meter will pinpoint the issue. IMO it’s always good to have the original path working properly without the additional cable. If that involves cleaning up a few mating pieces of corrosion then that should be done first. If one wants to add a cable after that point why not go for it. There are more ground paths than actually thought about. One day we should start a thread and try to name them all.. lol

    • #6
      I'm curious,what would having FAM mounts have anything to do with the grounds? I saw a car once that the owner burned himself on the fuel line.Everything was so old and rusty the line was the only ground while cranking the engine.I also saw a modern skinny ignition cable glowing from doing the same job.

      Comment


      • #7
        The first A I had I got from my girlfriend's Dad. He couldn't get it to run. I worked on it over several days and it would fire intermittently but would not run. after cranking and trying, and repeating almost to the point of a dead battery I noticed one if the support springs on the front motor mount was smoking. the spring was hot enough to smoke the oil that was on it. I cleaned every connection from the frame to the plugs. stepped on the starter and it ran just fine. it was trying to find low reistance path to ground and that was the front motor mount. Now, I make sure of the battery to ground, Engine through the rear motor mounts, head light buckets to headlight bar, headlight bar to fender brackets, fender brackets to frame...and any other places I can think of has a clean connection.
        I would add an extra ground and see if it goes away.
        http://jmodela.coffeecup.com

        Comment


        • #8
          Appears to be an ignition arc to me too.

          Definitely a ground path issue.
          As Mitch stated, start at the frame to ground cable connection.

          Now, what is the primary engine to frame ground path?
          On a stock Model A it is a combination of the following:

          Front engine mount
          - Floats on a spring, always loose, not a solid electrical connection.
          Rear engine mounts - Bolts through rubber with spacers, not a solid electrical connection.
          Fuel line - (gasp!) - Electrical conn to tank/cowl/body that sits on blocks/pads with bolts that connect to frame.
          Vacuum line - Electrical conn to firewall. Same problem as fuel line.
          Drive train - Thru grease/oil and across machined surfaces, then thru rear spring, not a solid electrical connection.
          Engine pans - Electrical connection to engine and frame. If freshly painted a poor path.
          Metal popout switch cable (Yikes!) I've seen one get RED HOT during cranking when some items on this list were not in place!!
          Brake rods - A loose assembly from pedal shaft to axles to springs to frame.
          Throttle and spark advance linkage - Not a solid electrical connection. Across loose lubricated moveable points.

          When new and with all pieces in place it worked fine. The original paint and finishes were thin, not overly plastic in nature, and easily bitten through to bare metal when assembling.

          You can also get ignition to body arcing if you have a battery cutoff and are running the engine with the cutoff open (very bad!!), using the generator alone to power the ignition.



          Comment


          • #9
            OLD Volvos with grounding problems, would sometimes SMOKE the 2, LOOOONG choke cables, going to the 2 S.U. Carbs!!! They would GLOW, completely RED!!
            Dad Makingupnewcables (DANG!)

            Comment


            • #10
              Grounding can be interesting indeed. When cranking over the mail truck first time in 35 years, the hood latch fasteners started to smoke on the passenger side almost immediately and were warm to the touch.

              Comment


              • #11
                I found grounding issues when I burned my hand on throttle rod. I was like "that's odd" and you guys fixed me right up!!

                Comment


                • #12
                  Nothing like a good shock treatment while driving your A.
                  3 ~ Tudor's
                  Henry Ford said
                  "It's all nuts and bolts"


                  Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                  Comment


                  • #13
                    I get shock treatments on the A's by reaching across the engine to push the starter rod down.i might not be able to get a good spark at a plug,but I sure can get a good one to the bottom side of my arm.I also get a lot of them while using the blast cabinet,mostly to my chin and my nose.

                    Comment


                    • Big hammer
                      Big hammer commented
                      Editing a comment
                      How many times have you done this? I do the same thing and still get shocked for time to time! Keeps the heart pumping :-)

                  • #14
                    UPDATE....He added the ground from cross brace battery bolt to the transmission housing....SAME ISSUES still. He sees the ARC?? This is a 31 cabriolet also.

                    Comment


                    • #15
                      Was the ground connection at the battery cable to battery & cable to frame cleaned and checked? If not the extra cable he added wont mean diddly squat
                      3 ~ Tudor's
                      Henry Ford said
                      "It's all nuts and bolts"


                      Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                      Comment


                      • Mitch
                        Mitch commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Does he have an ohm meter?

                      • Mark Maron
                        Mark Maron commented
                        Editing a comment
                        1st thing i asked him...and yes all clean no paint

                      • Mark Maron
                        Mark Maron commented
                        Editing a comment
                        OHM meter i don't know if he has that...What do you want him to check?

                      • Mitch
                        Mitch commented
                        Editing a comment
                        The proper way to check for high resistance or a bad connection is with an ohm meter. Go from the battery post to the battery cable at the post your checking. This will tell you know if there is resistance between the two. Then go from the battery post to the frame, then to the motor etc.,. Beats going the shotgun route


                        https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tex...hmmeter-usage/

                    • #16
                      Originally posted by Keith True View Post
                      I get shock treatments on the A's by reaching across the engine to push the starter rod down.i might not be able to get a good spark at a plug,but I sure can get a good one to the bottom side of my arm.I also get a lot of them while using the blast cabinet,mostly to my chin and my nose.
                      I was always getting the same nose and chin shocks with my blast cabinet. I finally ran a wire to the tip of the gun, and a small chain from the cabinet to the floor.
                      This put an end to it for now at least.

                      Comment


                      • Mitch
                        Mitch commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I have that trouble to but the shocks feel good. I'll just leave it as is!!

                    • #17
                      OK, another possibility... You stated a "flex tube" wrapped in "duct foil" (metallic/ conductive). Either that flex tube is non-conductive or is effectively ash coated on the inside, providing a non-conductive surface that the hot air passes over. This combination will permit a static charge to accumulate on the inner, non-conductive surface as hot air passes through. It then induces an opposite charge on the other side of the tube. Just like charging a capacitor. Then it arcs to the nearest conductor, in this case the body. Adding grounds as discussed above will NOT stop that.

                      Anyone who has ever operated a sand blaster with a metal nozzle has experienced similar static arcing from air passing through a non-conductive hose, charging the metallic nozzle, then capacitively transferring an opposite charge across the non conductive glove and charging your body which then arcs to the cabinet. OUCH!

                      You could try spraying the inside of the flex tube with heat-resistant aluminum paint. That paint is not conductive to low voltages but will readily pass high charges. Or try a metallic flex tube instead. Now, where did I put that roll of wintergreen Lifesavers??

                      Comment


                      • JDupuis
                        JDupuis commented
                        Editing a comment
                        My mind is blown!

                    • #18
                      Originally posted by MikeK View Post
                      OK, another possibility... You stated a "flex tube" wrapped in "duct foil" (metallic/ conductive). Either that flex tube is non-conductive or is effectively ash coated on the inside, providing a non-conductive surface that the hot air passes over. This combination will permit a static charge to accumulate on the inner, non-conductive surface as hot air passes through. It then induces an opposite charge on the other side of the tube. Just like charging a capacitor. Then it arcs to the nearest conductor, in this case the body. Adding grounds as discussed above will NOT stop that.

                      Anyone who has ever operated a sand blaster with a metal nozzle has experienced similar static arcing from air passing through a non-conductive hose, charging the metallic nozzle, then capacitively transferring an opposite charge across the non conductive glove and charging your body which then arcs to the cabinet. OUCH!

                      You could try spraying the inside of the flex tube with heat-resistant aluminum paint. That paint is not conductive to low voltages but will readily pass high charges. Or try a metallic flex tube instead. Now, where did I put that roll of wintergreen Lifesavers??
                      I was going to mention that but you beat me to it dang
                      3 ~ Tudor's
                      Henry Ford said
                      "It's all nuts and bolts"


                      Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                      Comment


                      • #19
                        On this topic... I'm on a 12v negative ground system. I simply need to connect my manifold heater to the firewall. Any certain ways you all would recommend? I can't find any rubber fernco couplings that will fit.

                        Comment


                        • #20
                          CCWP0251 WELCOME to the VFF!!!

                          Best thing to use is flex tubing. Sorry I can't tell you where to get it, but I'm sure someone here will.
                          You wana look waaay far up da road and plan yer route because the brakes are far more of a suggestion than a command!

                          Comment


                          • #21
                            We often talk about the connection between the ground cable and the frame, but I recently had a no running condition in which I cleaned the connection to the frame but the actual failure was the ends of the braided cable itself (I don't know which end) which were corroded and only crimped. It would carry 6 volts but dropped to virtually nothing when there was a load on the line.

                            Comment


                            • #22
                              Originally posted by CCWP0251 View Post
                              On this topic... I'm on a 12v negative ground system. I simply need to connect my manifold heater to the firewall. Any certain ways you all would recommend? I can't find any rubber fernco couplings that will fit.
                              Welcome to the VFF
                              Scroll through these heater technical thread pages. You’ll find your answer on page 3, along with tons of other info
                              https://www.vintagefordforum.com/for...n-your-model-a
                              3 ~ Tudor's
                              Henry Ford said
                              "It's all nuts and bolts"


                              Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                              Comment

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