Reverse idler shaft

[Vin1930]

Good morning. I'm a new member and a fairly new Model A owner. Sorry for the long post, but hoping to figure out how to fix a dumb mistake:

In an attempt to fix the leak from the reverse idler and cluster shafts, I bought one of Bratton's seal kits. The reverse idler shaft was too long to fit into the cover provided, so I followed Bratton's instructions and ground down the end of the shaft to what I thought was a reasonable length. Too aggressive -- I didn't realize this shaft is completely free floating without the outer lip that laps over the retaining bar. There's just enough left to hold the idler shaft in place, but not enough to work with the new retaining bar included in Bratton's seal kit.

So, now I have a reverse idler shaft held in place by just a small lip of metal, the seal won't fit, and of course I still have a leak. The transmission is otherwise completely fine (shifted well with no racket) and to my untrained eye looks OK inside. I had it out to replace the throw out bearing. It only has 8,000 miles since rebuild, but that was 35 years ago (we inherited the car from my wife's grandfather, who restored this and a couple of dozen other A's). Is this worth me taking the tranny back out of the car and tearing it apart to put in a new reverse idler shaft? The rear end hasn't gone back in yet, so I'm OK pulling the trans if I need to. Is it possible to replace the idler shaft without tearing the transmission down? I could certainly pull the old shaft out easily; I'm tempted to try slipping a new one in while I have the tower off and can see everything and reach the reverse idler gear. Would that even work?

Thanks in advance for any advice/suggestions.

[pAAt]

Welcome Vin1930 to VFF. Our trained staff are still sleeping due to answering questions late into the evening. Hang in there and someone should be with you shortly !! No . Pat

[DaWizard]

Hey Vin1930, WELCOME to the VFF!!

[A-doctor]

So did you use Bratton's seal kit # 10500? They say if you have an early reverse idler shaft the ends needs to be ground correct? Do you have a couple good pics you can post of the shaft, that is showing your issue? Now that you ground it down why won't the seal fit?

[tbirdtbird]

Hmm, if the rear is not back in the car I would strongly suggest starting over. We have ALL been there. Then you will know it is correct and not worry about it, and it will be safe for the next owner down the road.

There is another type of shaft that has a groove cut for an O-ring, this would be the most desireable way to go. I have the end seal since that is all they had available as aftermarket 30 yrs ago, and it doesn't really work well. We recently put the O-ring shafts in my nephews slant and not a drop.

I think you could get the shaft in without dismantling, it would take patience and be sure to grease up the O-ring well and don't force it in, ease it in

why doesn't the other shaft leak? The two always leak

If you ever take it down and remove the counter shaft (the long one) recall that it only removes and installs from one direction; the two holes are not the same size. Right this minute I cannot recall which way you remove it, rear to front maybe but someone will chime in here

[BNCHIEF]

Tbird he said reverse idler shaft, wonder if he knows you can get those two shafts with the o-ring to stop leakage the other piece I am thinking about goes in the bell housing to also stop oil leaks, but we are talking the shift tower rails not the reverse idler shaft as he said. also doubt that the transmission bearings are sealed so they too will leak. Since you asked the question why doesn't the other shaft leak ? is the basis for my comment. But you are right pull it and let us help you you will be glad later.

[Vin1930]

I'm at work today, so no photo (sorry; I can take on this evening). The problem is that the old retainer bar fits fairly tightly in the groove on the end of the shaft, but won't fit under the seal from Bratton's. The new retainer bar is slightly smaller, so won't hold what's left of the reverse idler shaft in place. I think my choices are: 1) just leave it as is with the old retainer bar, as it seems to be holding the shaft OK, and just put up with the leak, or 2) swap out the shaft for a new one.

I guess my main question is: Can I pull the old shaft out (it moves pretty easily) and slide the new one in without disassembling the tranny? I have the tower off and can see/reach the reverse idler gear, so I'm thinking I could work the new shaft in without too much trouble. I just want to make sure this isn't a stupid move. I don't want to compound one dumb mistake with another!

Thanks!!

[Ray Horton]

Take tbird’s advice. He knows what he’s talking about. Pull the tranny, reread the how-to very carefully, and start over.

[A-doctor]

Yes the reverse shaft can be slipped through carefully as you mentioned. Agree with tbird to do this right and like you said its already apart with the rear out. Replace both shafts with the o-ring styled type. Be careful not to cut the o-ring on the case so as mentioned lube it well. Others have actually chamfered the edge on the case so it goes in better but with care you won't need to do that. The other is prob leaking also.
Those mickey mouse fixes are usually not the way to go as you found out.

[Vin1930]

Actually, they do both leak. My plan was to just replace the reverse idler shaft that I mangled (already ordered from Bratton's, with the O-ring), then put the leak seal kit on. If you think disassembling and doing both shafts is wise, I can do that, too. My 9-year old assistant is already on board with removing the transmission again (he's the floor jack operator), so we can make it happen...

[Vin1930]

Thanks, all. I'll take a shot at both shafts!

[A-doctor]

Keep us posted

Don't forget to get a gasket kit

[BNCHIEF]

Vin welcome to the VFF I believe you are talking about the shifter tower rails not the reverse idler gear shaft. Some pics would help a lot.

[Vin1930]

Thanks, but it's the reverse idler shaft; leaks at the rear of the gear box.

[Vin1930]

Got it. I already ordered the gasket kit, as I knew I at least had to replace the tower gasket. I'll update you once I get this squared away!

[BNCHIEF]

Good luck.

[BNCHIEF]

If the main transmission bearings are not sealed they too will leak.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Lesson learned................I would never grind, cut, weld, or drill original parts to make some aftermarket part fit.

The cluster shaft should only be removed and installed through the front of the case, as the rear hole is a tighter fit.

At this point, I'd remove the tranny and install 2 new shafts with the O-rings. My tranny is all original and has no serious leaks, so I'm fine with it.

[Vin1930]

Roger. I still have the leak though. Ultimately, I was going to end up doing something. At least I have the rear end off, at the moment...

I've heard different people say the front hole is smaller and others that the back hole is smaller (including Bratton's). The youtube videos all show the cluster shaft being replaced from the back side. Maybe different years varied?

[Vin1930]

If I install the new cluster gear shaft from the front, will I have any issues getting the O-ring to seat in the rear wall of the gear box, without tearing it off getting through the front wall and needle bearings? Just wondering if that O-ring is why Bratton's recommends feeding it through from the rear of the gear box...

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Leave the old idler shaft in, clean the shaft ends & retainer bar with BRAKE CLEAN/CARB CLEANER/ETC----Cut 1/2" or so, from a plastic oval shaped bottle, that will cover everything. Fill the bottle bottom with RTV & push it over the stuff & wipe off the excess that "squishes" out & let it cure for awhile.---- Paint it to match the transmission.
Dad Simple

[Larry Jenkins]

To do it right, replace the two shafts with the new ones from Snyders that have the "O" rings. Also, while you're in there, replace the three needle bearings. Make sure the long and short ones are in the right place.

[tbirdtbird]

Tom W is one of the best experts we have here. I thought it was the front hole that was bigger and he confirmed it. If he says it, it is true!
All the years were the same.

Another pandora box with the roller bearings inside......some have the actual axles that go all the way thru, some only have the end plates dimpled to hold the rollers. The dimpled kind is junk, do not use them. Right now I do not know which vendor has the good ones

Generally Bratton's has very good parts, as well as some other vendors. Since you might be new to Model As, I think it wise to try to steer you away from a place called Mac's

Here is a link to many tech articles on tranny and diff overhaul by one of the best, Tom Endy
http://www.santaanitaas.org/technica...tech-articles/

as always lots of helpful people here to give a hand

pix help too and it is an easy site to get pix up

and as you know not everything on u-tube is true

[Vin1930]

Thanks for helping me out. So far, I've only used Bratton's, as they are close by (Walt is a member of the local club). Generally, their advice has been good (except for the part about grinding off the end of the idler shaft!!).

[tbirdtbird]

Walt is the best!

[Mitch]

Welcome Vin to the VFF
The way I see it is you have many options as mentioned above.

You can also fix the shaft in the car by welding a flat washer onto the back of it, but pics would help.

If I was to replace the shafts I sure as heck would put in a basic parts kit. I am not one to reuse the old input / output and needle brgs, they are 90 Years old. (to me that is suicide for a minimal amount of money) These transmissions are very simple to do, and it's already sitting on your lap. JMO
Here is a thread from the tech section which lists all that you need for a basic freshen up. SEE POST #2
https://www.vintagefordforum.com/for...noise-guidance

[Vin1930]

Thanks, much. This is actually a transmission that was rebuilt in the early 80's, with only about 8,000 miles on it, hence my reluctance to tear it apart.

[Afordman31]

Cluster gear shaft and o-ring.JPG

f you ever take it down and remove the counter shaft (the long one) recall that it only removes and installs from one direction; the two holes are not the same size. Right this minute I cannot recall which way you remove it, rear to front maybe but someone will chime in here

This is what I found on the direction to remove and install!

[Vin1930]

Thanks; that was the diagram I was going from, but the manuals and several here indicate I should do it from front to rear. Maybe the O-ring makes a difference?

[George Miller]

The idler shaft comes out the front of transmission like Tom said. One trick to put the o ring shafts in with out cutting the O ring is use a hose clamp with shim stock inside the clamp. Tighten it down on the shaft then tap the shaft in the case. But is also best to put a small chamfer on the hole in the case.

The best way to put the O rings in is with a flat pice of metal with a hole bored just big enough for the shaft to slide in. then put a nice champer on one side. then hold it to the case and push the shaft in.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Thanks; that was the diagram I was going from, but the manuals and several here indicate I should do it from front to rear. Maybe the O-ring makes a difference?

The tranny rear hole for the cluster shaft is slightly smaller, so I'd do it the Ford way, which is from the front side. You could use a Dremel and stone to grind a bevel on the inside edge of the hole, but be sure all grindings are cleaned out. I always install a small rare earth magnet in the pockets of the drain and fill plugs. As any metal wears off it will be kept in place by the magnet, rather than circulating through the bearings.

OK, I just realized this thread is just about the reverse idler shaft, so yes, that one needs to be removed and installed from the rear, but for the cluster shaft, I always R&R from the front.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Thanks; that was the diagram I was going from, but the manuals and several here indicate I should do it from front to rear. Maybe the O-ring makes a difference?

Yes, I think you are right about the O-ring making a difference, but I'd still bevel the inside edge, and do it the Ford way, which is to R&R from the front for the cluster shaft.

[DennyC]

Just an FYI, I ordered the cluster gear shaft with o-ring from Brattons on January 28 and it is still on back order. I haven't been desperate enough to check with another vendor yet.

[Vin1930]

They should have them now, mine was delivered last night...

[Hank B]

I ordered one with the rest of the guts for my transmission on the 15th of February and got mine in the mail yesterday. They even included a VFF Fridge magnet!

[Mitch]

From the Jim Schild Manual.

Line 13&14


Scan0009.jpg

[Vin1930]

Thank you!

[Mitch]

I noticed this when I was looking for Beauford’s bumper arms the other day in the pile. This trans has a solid metal cover over the shaft ends. This cover looks to be nicely made but it is very old. It must be the older version of the Mickey Mouse fix that is being sold today.

[tbirdtbird]

Slick, never saw anything like it

[Mitch]

I will try and get over to the trailer this week and remove it for further inspection.