Motor Questions

[Chevmn56]

I was cleaning the block today getting ready to put the pan back on , while i was under Clyde i started to look around at the bottom side of the motor, im going to show my ignorance again but i will ask.....i noticed the crank has had holes drilled in the end of the lobs (counter weight) and the lobs look as though they have been welded on, i thought these motors where not balanced????? and i thought the crank was cast???. Im guessing by this that the engine has been gone through????? also the rear main bearing drain tube has been installed with orange RTV (the RTV supplier must have made a fortune on the re builder its every where). the nuts on the rod caps are castle nuts with cotter pins. Not sure why they didn't use lock washers.I think i can see cross hatch on cylinder walls thats good. Does it sound like the engine has been rebuilt????

[tbirdtbird]

Sure sounds like the motor has been overhauled.
This is a Model A motor, correct? not a Model B?
The cranks were forged, not cast. Forged is much better, very strong.
Counterweights have been added if you see them welded on.
A properly installed drain tube does not require RTV I have to wonder just what was done there.
Lock washers on rod caps is a risky business; lock washers can fracture. Castle nuts with cotters were Ford OEM.
Do you see cross hatching all the way up as far as possible for the pistons that are top dead center? Or just below where the rings contact, ie the very bottom of the bore where the rings never touch. If up as far as you can see, it doesn't seem the motor has many miles on it, OR moly rings were used, which take forever to seat. We prefer iron rings here. Anyway, the cross hatching to me is a non-issue.

The real question is how did the motor run before you dropped the pan and what made you decide to drop the pan?

[Chevmn56]

Ill take pics in the am and post (im at work keeping the flying public safe)Well the engine number on the block suggests it is a 1929 block.....but the head is a Model B as well as the pump, and no oil filter. The crank doesnt look like Model A pics on the internet.....but i really dont know what a real model A crank looks like.

[Mitch]

Make sure that drain tube is in tight and not just dangling. It should also be 3/8th and not 5/16th pipe

[Chevmn56]

Yeah it ran pretty good had a little miss at idle but for a old car it ran well. The reason for dropping the pan was it seemed everything leaked like a sieve (sp) and in all the reading on this forum everyone said to drop the pan and check for sludge etc......i figured i could reseal stuff and paint it up and make it period correct as i go . Ill check the tube....is it screwed in or pressed in?? Ill get some pics in the am of the walls, tube and welded lobes.... LMAO this has turned into one long tune up....it all started the a B timing cover(which has been changed) and it keeps going lol i wish the postal service was faster from Berts and Snyders....i think you fellers call it some kind of BUG!!!!

[CM2]

First engine stock model A,second engine early model B with welded on counterweights..Counterweighted crankshaft is good.youre lucky.

[Chevmn56]

WOW.......my crank is definatley the B.....shit can a B crank be ran in a Model A block????? What did they gain by having a B crank in a A block ?????? im really kind of confused/pissed....so everything i have been doing is to return it to Model A correct with period correct parts etc. Now im worried it wont start.

[CM2]

Not necessarily,its a good thing to have a B crank,if you do.Most likely its a model a crank with welded weights.A B crank in an A engine requires regrinding the main journals to 1.600 for babbit,1.800 for insert bearings,then using B rods with the full size B rod journals.If your engine is otherwise stock doubtful its a B crank,more often than not its an A with welded weights,instead of buying a counterweighted crankshaft from Burlington or Scat the machinist welds on his own and balances it. B crank in an A engine is Banger stuff that takes more money than,well,more money

[DaWizard]

When I install a 3/8 drain pipe I usually only tap out enough to get the tube started with 4 or so threads, then do a punch on the face right at the threads to set the pipe, this will keep it from turning and hold it in the cap. Some pictures would be nice. I look forward to seeing up your motor.

IF you find the pipe needs more than about 4 threads to hold it snug and if it is like the available pipes, I would take half the threads off so you only have about 4 threads left on the pipe then thread it in until you butt up against the end thread then lightly peen it to set the thread to hold it.

Ok, in case that wasn't clear, I took some pictures.
Cap drain hole.jpgIn this picture you can see that the thickness to the drain hole in the cap is only about 6 threads and this is with the 5/16 tube hole.

Cap drain hole plug.jpgThis picture shows the drain hole plug. Now, you may thing the is not enough meat between the plug and end of cap to dimple it, but it don't take a lot to make the dimple, can be done with one of them self punching center punch. It don't take much.

drain tube.jpgHere is the 3/8 drain tube, and if you are going from 5/16 to 3/8 tube, use a 1/8 pipe tap and only thread enough to get about 3 or 4 threads of the new tube in it, that is all it takes, then punch it.

[Chevmn56]

I would take half the threads off so you only have about 4 threads left on the pipe then thread it in until you butt up against the end thread then lightly peen it to set the thread to hold it.

The pipe doesnt need to be any set length???

[Mitch]

https://www.brattons.com/3-8-oil-drain-tube.html

[DaWizard]

The pipe needs to be long enough to reach oil level. Just be sure it is the 3/8 pipe just threaded into the cap. Look above at pics.

[tbirdtbird]

yes, the bottom needs to be below the oil level in the pan

[Chevmn56]

Sooo if i shorten it like wiz said is it still gonna be good?????? the end should be in the oil ???? ok so who knows what the length should be after its screwed in??

[DaWizard]

I just measured and the pipe is 4" long, so ¼" threaded in would leave 3¾" below the cap if you want to measure it.

[Chevmn56]

Wiz i will measure what i have for sure.....but off the top of my head i dont think its anywhere near that long.....GRRRR see this has to be the longest tuneup ever!.....I will take a bunch of pics in the AM and post them.

[DaWizard]

Well, I will, I will look for the pics tomorrow, I do hope what I posted makes sense to you. Wish ya was closer I'd make a house call.

[Dennis]

Wiz you'd love the weather out there in Salt Lake right now.

[Dennis]

Some rebuilders tap the bearing cap to 3/8-32 and braze the tube to the cap after it's screwed in. You should also pop that soft plug off after the tube is screwed on and make sure there is no restriction at least where the tube is screwed on. I'll dig up a couple photos that show where some of your oil leak can be from. Also beings you have a crank that has counterweights welded on you won't be able to get the main bearing cap off without pulling the engine out. If it were me I'd leave it alone if the tube isn't loose. Most likely it's been changed to a 3/8" tube and measuring will verify that.

Some rebuilders tap the bearing cap to 3/8-32 and braze the tube to the cap after it's screwed in.

The original Ford was 3/8-32 NS (special, not fine) straight thread as you state, not 1/8-27 pipe taper as many believe, It also is not 3/8 pipe taper, which is a much larger hole.

Originally Ford applied the little steel weld booger to make sure the tube did not move.
On 1928-29 forged steel caps he could have electric welded, but the 30-31's were primarily iron, and those might have been gas welded, though they look like TIG in most cases. Many welds were poor quality and have hairline cracks on caps I have looked at. (and I am OCD about looking at things like this!)

For replacement I agree with you to braze them, but don't spend a lot of time on the cap with a gas torch.

I would use the longer thread length and notch the end of the tube to ensure it does not block the oil passage hole in the cap. More threads is more better!

[Dennis]

"I would use the longer thread length and notch the end of the tube to ensure it does not block the oil passage hole in the cap. More threads is more better!"

And that is why I mentioned removing the plug on the side of the cap and checking for restriction.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I agree with Dennis, but check the drain tube to be sure it's open. You said it was leaking oil, did you find out why?
Use another hose to blow back into the drain pipe to be sure it's open.

[Chevmn56]

Yeah same here i have a fridge full of barley pops......i could probably really ask a ton of dumb questions.....it does make perfect sensejust worried that the pipe is only about 2"

[Tom Wesenberg]

2" is too short. Maybe you can make an extension for it. Otherwise the engine or tranny and flywheel cover need to come off to remove the rear main cap.

[Dennis]

Ok here are some pictures of a Model A with a counterbalanced crank and is early 29 block, like you determined yours is. I'll make a couple or more postings with a picture so I don't confuse you. First picture is the tube in the main bearing cap. Also look for brass shims at each of the main bearing caps. Do you see any? Also look for shims at the connecting rods. This way we can determine if you have babitted block and or connecting rods. Notice how close the tube is to the counterweight.

[Chevmn56]

Will do ill snap pictures of the rod and main bearings cuz i would like to know if i have babbits or not to ....just to know.....the tube looks as though it is slanted to the front of the motor...man that is close to the weight......i did notice numbers stamped into the rod caps.....we do that on the V8s to keep the caps paired with the same rod...so if there is brass shims at the connecting rods what does that mean babitt or insert???.

[Chevmn56]

Dennis- Thanks for the input ill defiantly do that but i seriously i think that the tube is only a couple inches long....if it needs to be at oil level i dont think it will reach but i will know in the am.Can i install a new tube with the cap still attached???

Tom- I do know the the pan gasket was leaking along with the front seal....the rear had some leakage but not like the others (the car had been sitting for a long timeand the oil plug copper gasket was as thin as paper and dripping.......but i do have one narley ugly leaking coming out of the speedo cable!!!!!..........if i blow back through the drain pipe should it be fairly easy to do or is it just a little air?

[Dennis]

Here's another of the main bearing cap and the aluminum seal all Model A engines have. Notice the black triangle with the arrow pointing to it. You DO NOT WANT TO SEE THIS or it can be a problem with an early block with a forged main bearing cap as this one is. The brass shims used to cover that area and the aluminum seal was shaped to fill that triangle area on the original seal. Some new seals are made different and this is a potential leak area. Ask me how I know. This engine has a counter balanced crank with inserts, therefore you don't see shims on the sides of the bearing caps. Some rebuilders use RTV on the outer edge of the rear main to prevent leaks plus the bolt and nut gets glued up.

[Chevmn56]

Is that the same area i will see the shims on the mains??

[Dennis]

Yes.

[Dennis]

How to fix that hole that is in photo above... a nice glob of RTV after the block and cap are thoroughly clean and dry both sides. Trust me it works. You will not see this when the inspection cover is on.

[Tom Wesenberg]

It should be fairly easy to blow back, as the upper end goes to an open oil slinger area. You should be able to remove the pipe, screw in a new one, and put a spot of weld on it to keep it from unscrewing. My engine have a very small spot of weld where the pipe meets the cap.

[Chevmn56]

LOL Thanks guys now i will be out there at 1230am looking at this stuff !!!!!!

[Dennis]

:rolling Sorry if I got you wound up.....

[Chevmn56]

LOL No your not

[tbirdtbird]

I see both black and blue RTV in Dennis' pix. Not sure what the deal is with the blue.
Generally you want the black, specifically Ultra Black, it stands up to petroleum waaay better. Maybe It isn't blue RTV I am seeing, I am sure Dennis can help me out on this

[Chevmn56]

I noticed that on the nut in the pic as well.....

[Dennis]

Yep the machinist used blue, and I always only use ultra black.

[CM2]

http://i63.tinypic.com/5bxmxl.jpg

[CM2]

Your engine had a B timing cover and you switched to an A?

[Chevmn56]

Your engine had a B timing cover and you switched to an A?

Yes?????? the mounting hub for the genny was small they had to shim the mount to get it to tighten up, I didnt like that....i didnt want a chrome cover i was taking it back to period correct........i have been told to check the cam between #1 and #2 valve for the fuel pump lobe......IF the lobe is there i will get a model B timing cover and put on it for timing purposes.

[tbirdtbird]

?? if you are using an A dizzy, you don't want the B cover, the pin is in the wrong place

[Chevmn56]

i think it has an A dizzy........according to the pics what do you think?????? what if it has B cam????

[Chevmn56]

Hers some pics kind of hard to get back in the rear main to see if it was leaking on that spot that Dennis showed

[Chevmn56]

The rest hope it helps.

[Dennis]

Look at the inside of your pan to see if that tube was rubbing on it back there.

[DaWizard]

That cap looks like it could have a shim, but kinda hard to be sure.

That tube looks ok the way it is cut, but sure looks nasty inside. Clean that thing out. The cut should be on the opposite edge from the bend, The bend points forward, the cut faces back.

[Chevmn56]

I see it to pretty thin.

[tbirdtbird]

Your main caps appear to have nylock nuts on them. Not really sure this is a good idea, I'd revert back to the original OEM method of castles and cotters.
In my experience nylocks can can and do loosen; I never use them on anything critical

[Mitch]

It's hard for me to tell. Is that tube 3/8th?
Don't screw it in to far, only a few turns or you'll block the oil flow from the cap. It's best to spot tack / braze them in place

[George Miller]

First engine stock model A,second engine early model B with welded on counterweights..Counterweighted crankshaft is good.youre lucky.

Your B crank engine has the center main cap on back wards or it is marked wrong.

[CM2]

It's not assembled sir,just stuck on there to store the crank

[BNCHIEF]

Can't sneak anything past George and that is a good thing and why posting pictures of your work is good.