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I know better,that's what hurts the most.

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  • I know better,that's what hurts the most.

    When I'm waiting parts for the engine I've been going through the front brakes.Like everything else on this chassis the brakes were done first class,woven linings, cast drums, shoes arc'ed and centered professionally,new rollers,roller tracks you name it..On disassembly the only thing it could use were floaters...a fool proof little upgrade,simple as can be.I ran out of Ford engine green doing the engine and figured Id go by the local antique car parts guy,spend a few bucks in town..while I'm there I grab a front brake floater kit,figured twenty something bucks is cheap for what it does and how could anyone screw up a wedge guide and pin?

    first thing I notice is the outer guide washer was welded on ...crooked...ok,I'd rather it pressed like the original but the weld really isn't under load so I straighten it and fit it... the wedge guide and the shank for the inner guide is too long,allowing the wedge to move in and out, play in mechanical brakes costs braking efficiency...so now I'm getting a little pissed.. then I noticed the stud was too short,I couldn't catch the cotter pin with the castellated nut,but not after having to thread file the cotter pin hole..that was enough for me..Done... stupid does hurt
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  • #2
    You might find the Flathead kit worth the extra few bucks, I did. I found the kit without the square head pins are more than adequate as you get the adjustment end floaters for front and back. Some people like the Flathead Ted kit, some don't. Ask around and go for a ride in an A with them. Also the drums if cast will last longer without the woven lining. The shoes Randy Gross relines work very well.

    https://www.brattons.com/brake-energizer-kit.html

    The deluxe kit with the square pins for the rear shoes only.

    http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/de...ke-floater-kit
    Last edited by Dennis; 01-17-2018, 09:24 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm going to check the centering and run what I have,the shoes and drums are new.If I want more I'll put teds kit on down the road..thanks for the links

      Comment


      • Dennis
        Dennis commented
        Editing a comment
        I can understand your position on that. Mine was in desperate need of brakes when I got it home, so I did the hole enchilada.

      • CM2
        CM2 commented
        Editing a comment
        I lucked out with this chassis I got,saved thousands over what I was looking at with the chassis under the '29..now if I could only find a 30/31 pickup cab..

    • #4
      FWIW: Opinions & Different Opinions

      Receiving top quality "new" Model A parts often depends on "where" one buys "new" Model A parts. Cheaper prices and cheaper shipping are not always the best way to go.

      I never return shabby looking new parts because I just do not have time to mess around with them ...... I call and just try to re-order better new parts from another Model A parts supplier.

      This statement is not to try to condemn our other wonderful Model A parts places, or put them in 2nd or 3rd place; however, "all" new parts I ever bought from Bratton's were always noticed to be only the very best new parts offered.

      Owner success in any type of business does not just happen by chance ...... it is lots of intense work on the part of the business owner.

      In my opinion, over the years, Mr. Walt Bratton listened very carefully to Model A customers' suggestions and always went the extra mile to search for and find better sources for new more reliable Model A parts.

      I always try to buy a little from several different Model A parts places. We are also blessed to have so many excellent places to buy Model A parts.





      Comment


      • 2manycars
        2manycars commented
        Editing a comment
        I agree about Walt. I once bought a set of rivet like stainless screws to re assemble headlamps after plating, and they came with nylock nuts. I called Walt and said this is no good. He said he thought it would prevent the nuts from loosening under vibration. I said yes, but there is no way to hold the screw while tightening the nut! He said wow, I did not think of that. The next set had nuts with star washers attached.

    • #5
      With all you have done on your brakes, I would expect that they would work fine without floaters.

      Comment


      • #6
        It obvious the builder of my brakes grasped that concept Brent.Everything from the brake rod clevis's to the shoe arc is spot on. Self centering brakes on application is an engineering upgrade that makes sense,its standard in the industry today.Like HL said,I violated the golden rule.buying quality parts from quality vendors is the cheapest in the long run.Ill still buy paint and common stuff from my local guy,I want his door to stay open.

        Comment


        • #7
          There is no compensation when the mechanical centering deviates from wear,nor is there an energizing effect where the shoe wraps into the drum from inertia.However,any loss of braking efficiency should be addressed,this is a hobby car. I am going the route you put forward,the quality of original parts is inescapable..

          Comment


          • #8
            FWIW:

            Worn Model A Ford mechanical brake parts were well known in the later 1930's to cause major brake problems. Once worn parts or assemblies had differential non-matching dimensions, (not matching Ford's exact dimensions), brakes no longer functioned as when they were new.

            Years ago, before being offered by any Model A parts suppliers, Mr. Charles Yapp in his "Magazine Secrets of Speed" ran an article on how someone indicated how to take a standard Ford Front Brake Operating Wedge Stud & modify it into the similar newly offered modified Front Brake Floaters offered in catalogs today.

            This new mechanical Ford part altering concept was submitted to show how to mechanically equalize front brake pressure similar to the Ford's already designed pressure equalization already provided for the rear brakes.

            From Mr. Yapp's article, I made my own front equalizer and found they worked well as reported.

            Later, when advertised in catalogs, I installed the catalog offered front equalizers on my Town Sedan.

            In my humble opinion, these front brake floaters offered by most Model A parts vendors today are an asset to mechanically improve full, front brake shoe contact when restoring old worn Model A brake assemblies ....... but, this is just an opinion ......and like with most Model A owner opinions, unless shown and convinced otherwise, most would rather fight than switch ..... LOL

            Comment


            • #9
              Question about new shoes. Are the new shoes without lining good, fair, or bad. I have lining, rivets, and tools to reline my own that I bought from Bratton's in the past.

              Comment


              • Dennis
                Dennis commented
                Editing a comment
                The problem with my old shoes were bent, worn holes, mismatched etc. That was one of the reasons for exchanging them with Randy Gross shoes and drums. My drums were worn beyond .125" and I'll never know how they kept from splitting apart.

            • #10
              A true double leading shoe system has an activating cam on each shoe. So these floaters are just an attempt to make these A brakes a double leading shoe system. Using the LF brake example I feel that on the stock system with the top spring attached the front shoe gets very little self energizing effect. With the floater and the top spring removed that front shoe is more free to move into the drum rotation and it is getting a little push from the rear shoe adjusting pin. I have Teds floaters on my front brakes and feel less pedal pressure is needed to lock things up.

              Comment


              • #11
                In a true self centering brake system both the actuator mechanism and the anchoring mechanism have to float,this counteracts your assertion the only one shoe 'energizes' on application.the corresponding shoe floats to energize as well. No model A brake energizer kit alters the adjuster housing...the adjuster pins cannot float...unless there is a secret to the Teds kit it doesnt address that..making the actual adjuster a wedge without allowing the pins to move up and down is useless

                Comment


                • WMWS
                  WMWS commented
                  Editing a comment
                  On Teds system the internals of the adjuster housing are altered. The shoes can float fore and aft and also to some degree up and down. The adjuster pins are not a real tight fit in the housing. Try it with the drum off. They will move around plenty for self centering and self energizing.

                • WMWS
                  WMWS commented
                  Editing a comment
                  To each his own. That's what makes the world go round.

              • #12
                All of the above are worthwhile suggestions from past experiences.

                However, appears problems will always occur if someone tries to avoid a dentist and tries to restore his own teeth; how about setting one's own broken bones without a doctor's appointment; maybe a colonoscopy with a nail clipper and a hand held mirror.

                Even if one understands the detailed mechanical requirements, not everybody is mechanically equipped with proper tools to quickly provide an almost perfect Model A mechanical brake restoration.

                In the end, it is never a bad idea to think and consider that no matter how it is done, and by whom, providing proper functioning of Model A brakes is a very important important "Life Safety" feature that can save lives.

                Comment


                • #13
                  In the picture on Bratton's site the wedge below the cotter pin is floating on the end of the adjuster, bottom left part in the picture. The front anchor that bolts onto the bottom of the backing plate and replaces the original or the other brand floater is machined to a narrower dimension allowing the shoes to have more movement. The backing plate allows the rollers to return to their position in the circular shape of the plate instead of the pins resting on the tracks. The original tracks remain in the backing plate and the Ted's plate gets bolted on top of it.
                  https://www.brattons.com/brake-energizer-kit.html
                  Last edited by Dennis; 01-18-2018, 03:08 PM.

                  Comment


                  • CM2
                    CM2 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I would think the original adjuster pins and adjuster housing limits the ability to self center,regardless of whats done on the actuating side.

                  • Dennis
                    Dennis commented
                    Editing a comment
                    The housing and pins are not the limiting factor, it's the adjuster that is cone shaped on the end. With the original cone shaped adjuster your shoes may not be able to make complete contact to the drum. When you replace that with a wedge that's flat on the sides that the pins fit up to and it has about a 1/4" free movement in the housing, the shoes will self center. The pins and housing are not a machined fit and they have some play, enough to let the shoe move up and down. Another thing to watch on Ted's kit are the shoes at the bottom on front brakes, the plate that your rollers fit against may not have room between the bottom of the plate and the inside of the shoe keeping the shoe from retracting. I had to grind off about 1/32" off the bottom of the plate so the shoe could retract and not rub on the inside of the shoe.
                    Last edited by Dennis; 01-21-2018, 01:17 AM.

                  • CM2
                    CM2 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I understand the cone limits shoe travel,and how his wedge works..its the original pins and housing that I have a problem with, your relying on play in the adjuster housing bore.I can see where he had a problem there,there is no easy redesign that safety and effectively allows the needed travel... in my opinion...results are paramount,if you get them,great. Hey...were you ever in Local 12? who did you work for?

                • #14
                  Well Im putting stock to the test,Im geared for 60 to 65 mph comfortably and plan on running modern radials on 16'' wheels.If I'm 200 bucks worth of unsatisfied Ill try Ted's.

                  Comment


                  • Mitch
                    Mitch commented
                    Editing a comment
                    If it's set up correctly and reworked to specs you'll be fine
                    Keep us posted

                • #15
                  Originally posted by H. L. Chauvin View Post
                  FWIW:

                  Worn Model A Ford mechanical brake parts were well known in the later 1930's to cause major brake problems. Once worn parts or assemblies had differential non-matching dimensions, (not matching Ford's exact dimensions), brakes no longer functioned as when they were new.

                  Years ago, before being offered by any Model A parts suppliers, Mr. Charles Yapp in his "Magazine Secrets of Speed" ran an article on how someone indicated how to take a standard Ford Front Brake Operating Wedge Stud & modify it into the similar newly offered modified Front Brake Floaters offered in catalogs today.

                  This new mechanical Ford part altering concept was submitted to show how to mechanically equalize front brake pressure similar to the Ford's already designed pressure equalization already provided for the rear brakes.

                  From Mr. Yapp's article, I made my own front equalizer and found they worked well as reported.

                  Later, when advertised in catalogs, I installed the catalog offered front equalizers on my Town Sedan.

                  In my humble opinion, these front brake floaters offered by most Model A parts vendors today are an asset to mechanically improve full, front brake shoe contact when restoring old worn Model A brake assemblies ....... but, this is just an opinion ......and like with most Model A owner opinions, unless shown and convinced otherwise, most would rather fight than switch ..... LOL
                  I had a good friend who was friends with Charlie Yapp, and he made me a set of those floaters. They worked pretty good. Another thing I tried was the floaters that the place in California sold that were a toggle that replaced the wedge, and applied both shoes to the drums equally. I have not tried Ted's setup, although it looks good to me on paper.
                  Bill
                  http://www.brauchauto.com/
                  Eastern Connecticut

                  Comment


                  • 2manycars
                    2manycars commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I have the late 31 iron drums.

                • #16
                  Good grief, after reading all this a liquid system sounds good to me.

                  Comment


                  • #17
                    Originally posted by carolinamudwalker View Post
                    Good grief, after reading all this a liquid system sounds good to me.
                    I think Henry finally did come to that conclusion too, after MUCH debate and pressure from his engineers. I guess the liquid system must have worked out since they never went back to mechanicals except on go carts. :~) But as they say, to each his own...
                    CB the Wonderful

                    Comment

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