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  • Broken front cross member

    This front cross member has a chunk of metal cracked out (I have the pieces) and other cracks that will eventually break the rest of the top out.
    Not sure if all of that can be welded back in place as it seems to be cracked in several directions. What causes that damage? Is the whole thing not clamped down tight enough, I don't want to repeat the problem after I fix it. No other damage to the frame just the blown out center of the cross member.
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    This gallery has 1 photos.

  • #2
    It's right at the point where it might be easier to replace it with another good crossmember.
    I'm not sure if being loose or rough roads caused the damage, but I've seen quite a few like that.

    Comment


  • #3
    Originally posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C
    Remember boys, we are 'Restorers' over here!! That other site is all about "replacing"!!


    YEA NOW U GOT ME ALL TORQUED UP!!!!!!
    3 ~ Tudor's
    Henry Ford said
    "It's all nuts and bolts"


    Mitch's Auto Service ctr

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  • #4
    Mannnn....I wish I could weld like that!

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    • #5
      And a very professional job I might add and being a welder I know quality work when I see it and anything I have seen Brent do is first class, that repair would be daunting to an inexperienced guy but that is also why guys like Brent are in business. First class Job Brent.

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      • #6
        Brent could you build Mitch a stacker trailer in your spare time?:rolling

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        • #7
          Wow those photos are really nice. I know an old guy who is a professional welder, has a truck with all the equipment on it and goes all over the place fixing machinery and also works at the place where they build coal cars for the railroad. Anyway he says he can fix it but it was hard to imagine without seeing how someone else did it. I am building an off road truck for cutting and hauling firewood out of hard to get to areas and have got most of the parts from hot rod projects so far plus some of my left over parts from restoring a couple cars. I expect the vehicle to get some rough use but not at high speed.

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          • #8
            Brent that repair is exactly how we would have done it, and it removes the question of fatigued steel being left behind to crack again.

            I will toss out an added technique for repairing unwanted holes that have been drilled, or similar:
            I know Brent has done this....
            Get yourself a 1/4" copper plate, and clamp it under the hole to be filled. The copper is conductive and you can easily MIG right across it and bridge the hole. Being copper, of course, the plate will not stick to the weld, and removes easily when you are done

            Comment


            • Mitch
              Mitch

              Administrator

              Mitch commented
              Editing a comment
              Dave nice tip

            • Beauford
              Beauford
              Senior Member
              Beauford commented
              Editing a comment
              Yup...that came in handing after drilling hole for spare mount before test fitting everything. The hole "of course" was off after adjustments so fill and grind was necessary. I do things twice so I can remember what a idiot I am. LOL

            • BNCHIEF
              BNCHIEF
              Senior Member
              BNCHIEF commented
              Editing a comment
              Beau some of us are experienced idiots and Dave i just learned something new thanks.

          • #9
            I think the first model A I restored was put together 3 times as I would do things wrong the first time then right the second but then realize that I should have assembled something else before what I just finished so back apart and finally after 3 times it was correct. Sometimes it just works out that way but the second car goes easier.

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            • #10
              Mine was not quite as bad as Brents in the center, but had some missing metal on the left side where it rivets to the frame. Took some time, but all fixed now. Rod
              "Much of the social history of the Western world, over the past three decades, has been a history of replacing what worked with what sounded good." Thomas Sowell

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              • #11
                If you can't weld like Brent, then I would call Bert's in Denver and see if they have a replacement.

                Comment


                • #12
                  Welding is a skill you will never regret having.
                  You can get a 120 VAC MIG for reasonable money. You will be able to do steel up to maybe 3/16"; more than sufficient for the hobbyist. It is not like you are gonna be welding a pipeline.

                  Be sure to get the gas bottle and set the machine up for MIG, and not set it up for flux core (the polarity of the machine is opposite for flux core.) Flux core for automotive work will just not get you where you wanna go for a bunch of reasons.
                  MIG is actually quite easy to learn, waay easier than stick welding, which is a PIA.

                  Use .023 or .025 wire, not .030 or .035 wire. It will weld easier and penetrate better. Even when we weld half-inch plate we don't bother to change out the wire to a bigger size because most of our work is tin (sheet metal)

                  You will never regret it. You will not be dependent on others to do something for you, and the expense you save that way will offset the cost of the welder. Once you learn you will wonder how you ever got along without it. Perhaps Brent could include some welding lessons at his upcoming workshop. If I am able to go I could easily do a bunch of welding demo/teaching. If not, I am sure someone there could. It would almost be worth the trip to the workshop just for this skill. If you can tie your shoes you can MIG, I guarantee it. NEVER take your eye off the molten puddle and you are already half-way there.

                  MIG insists the metal be squeaky clean. However there is brand of wire where that no longer matters, and is a fav of the autobody industry. It is called "Easy Grind". You can have surface rust and even some light paint contamination. Just no heavy rust or scale. Of course, you still try for the cleanest metal you can. To me the name Easy Grind has always been a misnomer, since it is "Easy" a bunch of things

                  There are you-tubes out there for welding and every one I ever viewed was pure trash

                  What Brent showed above looks like TIG which is a super nice cadillac technique, but MIG would have been fine.

                  We use a welder here seemingly every day of the week
                  tbirdtbird
                  Banned
                  Last edited by tbirdtbird; 12-25-2017, 12:17 AM.

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                  • #13
                    Structural integrity is key,its paramount in a model a frame,given its flexibility and lightweight.There does come a time where weld composition degrades structural integrity especially when the weldment bears the torsional load an A frame cross member bears.Its not that it can be done,its if you should do it..

                    Comment


                    • #14
                      Nice pix, Brent, always glad to see talent!

                      That is one helluva nice MIG bead on that crossmember, I would have bet money that was TIG.
                      And agree TIG can't be beat! I have a 400 amp Lincoln that will support a TIG torch; one of these days I am gonna hafta get the torch!

                      What is your experience with TIG on 'dirtier' metal?
                      The postwar steel on a '47 Stude we are working on is the nastiest stuff to weld. It pops and spits like no steel we have ever welded. And we have many many years of time behind a MIG machine. This is the only example of this I have ever run into. I have wondered how a TIG would handle it

                      I can only assume there was a boatload of steel left over from the results of the scrap drive for the war, that was a conglomeration of pots, pans, cars, sewing machines, breadboxes, shoe horns, rakes, etc etc anything and everything was melted down into one big pot

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                      • #15
                        I do heavier fabrication and heavy equipment repair,structural integrity is key to alot of it,we tend to over engineer a project.Shielding welding wire with gas is the easiest welding method in my book, great penetration and weld appearance if set up correctly. For structure I prefer 7018,good old stick..there is no bite and burn in like a stick weld in my book. Are you doing sheet metal or frame members on the Studebaker? if your doing the frame member I'd try an alloy rod designed for poor metal quality,its tolerant of the crap..

                        I train apprentices,its fun to impart skills..at first they all want to run MIG,I let them do it at first then once they get proud of their work I take it away,give them the stick..and a grinder.'No more Ferrari son,its time you learned to drive the Model A'
                        Last edited by CM2; 12-25-2017, 10:59 AM.

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                        • BNCHIEF
                          BNCHIEF
                          Senior Member
                          BNCHIEF commented
                          Editing a comment
                          You will not get the tensile strength with wire that you get with stick, since I build pipe corrals and such it is stick which I enjoy doing, 7018 is a great rod we use because we are welding old oilfield pipe and you are not going to get it clean, I have not and never will run fluxed wire period. That is just me.

                        • CM2
                          CM2 commented
                          Editing a comment
                          I learned on stick, welding on concrete plants...sand and aggregate bunkers,welding structure and walls.wet,rusty work,wore playtex gloves under the welding gloves to keep from getting shocked..learned about wearing safety glasses under the hood too,we welded front to back,all day the guy behind you's arc flash would reflect off your hood lens..that first night was unbelievable, the flash burn felt like hot sand in your eyes..so damn old now cant weld without glasses..building a set of loading ramps at work,10 foot long,10 inch lift,capable of supporting 50,000 pounds..

                        • BNCHIEF
                          BNCHIEF
                          Senior Member
                          BNCHIEF commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Same lessons I have learned as and with my luck if something can get in my eyes it will.

                        • CM2
                          CM2 commented
                          Editing a comment
                          I teach the difficult technique first,master stick and you'll MIG like a pro, stick lets you feel the weld penetration and shows you what to look for. You are right that stick welding is a dying art on the professional side,its only value today is in the field and under difficult weather conditions.Torch skills are another story..like MIG with stick,the plasma gun has negated the torch....I've seen some true craftsmen with a scarfing tip,they could scarf out a weld,tap it once with a slag hammer and burn...cut plate and skip the grinding.The plasma cutter is like a dream come true.it allows precision without the the practice it takes to master the torch..

                      • #16
                        Brent Dave and others this has been a great thread thanks to all of you.

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                        • #17
                          Cutting with a torch, years ago a company I had worked for decided to try a product the distributor called high purity gas to replace the acetylene. It required a different cutting tip, but it made a much cleaner cut. My best investment in tools this year was a TIG welder. There are a lot of inverter machines on the market now up to 200 amps that you can TIG with for repairs that Brent demonstrated but I wouldn't expect to do continuous production work with one. Most of those machines are stick/ TIG welders AC/DC machines. Just recently I noticed a MIG/TIG/Stick offered. I'm not sure if it was AC/DC though. The reason I bought a TIG was the ability to weld steel, aluminum, and stainless.

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                          • #18
                            On a slightly different note, anyone here ever use an oxygen lance?

                            Coolest thing I ever saw. I wanted one!!!!

                            Comment


                            • Dennis
                              Dennis
                              Senior Member
                              Dennis commented
                              Editing a comment
                              Is that like a Broco? I remember years ago when they came out with them, you had to get certified to have one. Safe crackers were using them and they thought that requiring a buyer to get certified or registered would discourage the wrong people from buying them. They were some kind of rod inside of a tube I forget what they were made from, but all you needed was a battery and a bottle of oxygen. I used one a lot to burn the center of pins and shafts to shrink them if they were froze up.
                              https://www.broco-rankin.com/industrial/
                              Dennis
                              Senior Member
                              Last edited by Dennis; 12-25-2017, 08:30 PM.

                            • tbirdtbird
                              tbirdtbird
                              Banned
                              tbirdtbird commented
                              Editing a comment
                              That is exactly what I meant. I saw it being used as you described to remove pins from heavy machinery. An O/A torch will not go deep enough and will just snuff out. The Broco will go as deep as you want, there is no stopping it

                            • Dennis
                              Dennis
                              Senior Member
                              Dennis commented
                              Editing a comment
                              Yup, and the guys in some of the youtube videos are using them with the rods straight. I always bent the end where it goes in the torch handle at an angle to the molten metal so it isn't blowing back at your torch handle. It's not a clean way to cut metal but is a lot faster than a OA torch. And I don't know how much the rods cost either. It would burn through slag where Airarc would stumble on.

                            • tbirdtbird
                              tbirdtbird
                              Banned
                              tbirdtbird commented
                              Editing a comment
                              You can cut a battleship in half with one of those in about 5 minutes

                            • CM2
                              CM2 commented
                              Editing a comment
                              Used them on CAT iron years ago..scraper hitch pins,compactor cleaner bar frame pins too..its what Dennis described..once it was lit you could just push it through steel..it wasn't precise however,and you better wear full leathers..use the 'slice' on the pins,weld the bores in the bushings to drive them out,get a carboy of liquid nitrogen to freeze the new bushings,they shrink so much you had to hold them in till they expanded again..slide in new pins and go,we used to do them in the wintertime so the dirt could fly all summer..

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