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Interesting read in Service Bulletins on re-torquing head

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  • Interesting read in Service Bulletins on re-torquing head

    Finally broke down and got a set of the Ford Service Bulletins.
    First thing my eye found was this on pg 375:

    "Keep cylinder head nuts tight
    When engine is thoroughly warmed up all cylinder head nuts should be taken up slightly. This operation should be repeated several times especially during the first 50 miles the car is driven. Attention to this detail lessens the possibility of a cylinder head gasket blowing out"

  • #2
    What ? No more debating :-)

    Comment


    • Big hammer
      Big hammer commented
      Editing a comment
      And I thought ( there I go again thinking) the debate would be ending! Oh well conversation is always/ sometimes good :-)

  • #3
    Tbird, should a person re-torqe a head, with plenty of miles on it, if it's running good ?
    Model A's and of course the famous AA's

    Comment


    • tbirdtbird
      tbirdtbird commented
      Editing a comment
      probably not. An unknown motor with a 4.2 stock head that has been on there for quite a while, prolly not

  • #4
    You could take that to say to torque it while it is running?
    Alaskan A's
    Antique Auto Mushers of Alaska
    Model A Ford Club of America
    Model A Restorers Club
    Antique Automobile Club of America
    Mullins Owners Club

    Comment


    • DaWizard
      DaWizard commented
      Editing a comment
      Hey Carl, don't be silly. You could never get the correct torque while jogging beside the car!! Besides, not everyone has the special Snap-On tool to tighten the #1 nut so the distributor would need to be lifted and or removed to get to that #1 nut which would mean it can't be running.
      Last edited by DaWizard; 06-19-2017, 08:52 PM. Reason: spelling

    • Mitch
      Mitch commented
      Editing a comment
      tbird which edition did you buy?

    • tbirdtbird
      tbirdtbird commented
      Editing a comment
      I grabbed that Ben Staub set Tom posted

  • #5
    While looking at the Green Service Bulletin book, finding bulletin #375 I decided wander further into the book. What to my surprise, bulletin #455 at the top of the page also says the following;

    "Before replacing cylinder head, pour at least a tablespoon of engine oil around the edge of each piston to insure sufficient lubrication when engine is started. After the engine is thoroughly warmed up, tighten all cylinder head nuts. Attention to this detail lessens any possibility of gasket blowing out."

    So I would say that Ford wanted the torquing of the head done warm, NOT cold. So much for the "know-it-alls".
    You wana look waaay far up da road and plan yer route because the brakes are far more of a suggestion than a command!

    Comment


    • #6
      Originally posted by DaWizard View Post
      So I would say that Ford wanted the torquing of the head done warm, NOT cold. So much for the "know-it-alls".
      What torque value does the Service Bulletins say to use warm?

      Comment


      • DaWizard
        DaWizard commented
        Editing a comment
        I will need to start over reading because either I missed that part, or it didn't register. I know I am seriously brain cell challenged.

        Personally, I use 65#. But that is also 65# cold.
        Last edited by DaWizard; 06-20-2017, 12:05 AM.

    • #7
      After looking through the references to head tightening, it doesn't list a "torque" setting in the bulletins.
      You wana look waaay far up da road and plan yer route because the brakes are far more of a suggestion than a command!

      Comment


      • Mitch
        Mitch commented
        Editing a comment
        Torque wrenches were not used / just human feel with a click of the wrist and common sense

    • #8
      That's with the original ford copper gasket. Other gaskets may have different directions.

      Comment


      • #9
        I tried torquing with the engine running. Got knocked on my ass from the spark plugs.

        Comment


        • Mitch
          Mitch commented
          Editing a comment
          HAHA try it with electronic ignition

        • DaWizard
          DaWizard commented
          Editing a comment
          I used to have the most fun with the engine running and my brother leaned over the fender working or doing something to the A, and touch a spark plug wire and touch him. HAHAHA, had him jumping.

          As long as you are not bare footed or leaning against the car, the spark won't hurt ya, and I have even tickled a few spectators by holding the wire and having THEM touch the car while I touch them.

          Had to ask if they had a pacemaker first.

          Ahh the fun times!!

      • #10
        In the spring of 1984 (13 at the time) when I bought my first Model A, I befriended several of the local antique car people. Often on Saturdays I would call one of them ahead of time and spend the afternoon with one or more of them while my Mom and sisters were shopping etc. One of the Model A guys loaned me his Service Bulletins. It was the first bit of Model A literature I read and viewed it as the Bible of Model A mechanical information. Over the summer I had some lawn mowing and farming jobs. With the first bit of money I earned I bought my own copy. Shortly after I bought Jim Shields Model A Shop Manual. When the Shop Manual lead me with questions I could always find the info in the Service Bulletins. Many publications have come and gone as must read info, but I have always found the best answer in the Service Bletins. Rod
        Much of the social history of the Western world, over the past three decades, has been a history of replacing what worked with what sounded good.

        Comment


        • #11
          How many times we buy a running car & the head is seeping around the edges & we "WONDER"?????
          Bill Retorqueandaddbarsleaks
          Last edited by BILL WILLIAMSON; 06-20-2017, 05:48 PM.

          Comment


          • #12
            Ok, on a more common sense note.

            Let's take a look at the spark plug/head nut wrench. Because after reading through the Service Bulletins last night and not finding a torque spec, it got me to thinking. How much actual torque can one man put on a head nut using the wrench that came with the car? Since the wrench is what, about 12" long with that open end for the spark plug, it would be seriously uncomfortable to bare handed crank down on a head nut to get maybe 45# of torque. If you were leather gloved maybe 50# torque?


            Now, I use a torque wrench that is easier to handle, round handle, and much longer than the combo wrench that comes with the car, at about 18". I would say that the torque specs for the model A head was subjective, hence, torquing the nuts while the motor was up at operating temp makes perfect sense since the cool down will tighten up the head with the lessor actual torque able to be reached with the stock wrench.

            Now, since I don't know when the torque wrench was invented nor when the actual torque numbers were standardized, and frankly, I don't care, I don't think that Ford was too concerned about what the actual torque was, as much as he was concerned that it was done as often as remembered. Which is why there are at least 3 references to tightening up the nuts as often as possible in the Service Bulletins.
            Last edited by DaWizard; 06-20-2017, 03:29 PM. Reason: puncuation
            You wana look waaay far up da road and plan yer route because the brakes are far more of a suggestion than a command!

            Comment


            • #13
              "Modern" spark plug washers usually collapse properly at 25 Ft. Lbs, for the most efficient HEAT dissipation! If ALL plugs are not tightened uniformly, you can throw HEAT RANGE out the "WINDOW"----REALLY!
              Bill W.

              Comment


              • #14
                FYI -- The Snap-On wrenches had a list price of $60 back in the 60s before they discontinued them. To find them for the same price today is probably a good deal.
                Alaskan A's
                Antique Auto Mushers of Alaska
                Model A Ford Club of America
                Model A Restorers Club
                Antique Automobile Club of America
                Mullins Owners Club

                Comment


                • #15
                  Hey, just to throw more wood on this fire, when I replaced the head gasket a couple months ago, I did NOT replace the studs in the block. I did however chase the threads and used new nuts because the old stuff had flat washers under the nuts. So whatever stud that was in there is what I just stretched with 65# cold torque!

                  So far, I got maybe 200miles on it with not so much as a whimper of a leak or blown gasket.

                  I also use a crows foot for the #1 and #13 nuts!
                  You wana look waaay far up da road and plan yer route because the brakes are far more of a suggestion than a command!

                  Comment


                  • #16
                    The crows foot socket can throw the torque off a bit, but the wrench that Vince pictured should have no effect on the torque value.
                    It would be the same as using a straight extension, but since it's a bit above the nut I use the palm of my hand to support the top so it doesn't push to the side

                    BTW, does anyone know what the grade is of original head studs and nuts?

                    Comment


                    • DaWizard
                      DaWizard commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Well, at 65# I don't think the loss on the crows foot is significant enough to matter.

                      The Service Bulletin only lists the correct length for the cable clamp stud.
                      Last edited by DaWizard; 06-21-2017, 12:24 AM.

                  • #17
                    The only thing that I've seen affect a grade 8 stud, nut, bolt, and washer is salt water. Living on the west coast working on construction equipment exposed to salt water day in and day out, you get used to changing a lot of hardware.

                    Comment


                    • DaWizard
                      DaWizard commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Hey Dennis, have you heard about the Henry Ford Picnic put on by the Diamond Tread Chapter in Downey on the 25th, this next Sunday?

                      http://www.diamondtread.com/

                    • Dennis
                      Dennis commented
                      Editing a comment
                      DaWizard, yes don't know if I'll make it. Henrietta is in pieces yet...

                  • #18
                    I bought the Snap-on version about 8 years ago. Think I payed about $10 for it on Ebay. Rod
                    Much of the social history of the Western world, over the past three decades, has been a history of replacing what worked with what sounded good.

                    Comment


                    • #19
                      They go for considerably more than that on eBay today -- that is if and when you can find them.
                      Alaskan A's
                      Antique Auto Mushers of Alaska
                      Model A Ford Club of America
                      Model A Restorers Club
                      Antique Automobile Club of America
                      Mullins Owners Club

                      Comment


                      • #20
                        WELL,
                        We've done 2+ pages on RE-TORQUEING & STUDS!
                        What exciting subject shall we tackle NEXT???---Like, MAKIN' BETTER COFFEE/STAYIN' HOME WITHOUT GETTIN' KRAZY/TRAININ' YOUR DOG/WHICHAWAY DUZ A NUT TURN/BENDIN' KOTTER KEYS CORRECTLY/ETC ????
                        I once got BANNED, fur makin' "FUN" about Kotter Key Bendin'----LOL
                        Bill W.

                        Comment


                        • pAAt
                          pAAt commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Ask the dog what the correct way to bend kcotter keys is and let me know. That way he'll be the one that gets banned by Dad this time !! Pat

                          P.S.- unless you've already been banned for making fun of re-torquing studs

                      • #21
                        Originally posted by BILL WILLIAMSON View Post
                        WELL,
                        We've done 2+ pages on RE-TORQUEING & STUDS!
                        What exciting subject shall we tackle NEXT???---Like, MAKIN' BETTER COFFEE/STAYIN' HOME WITHOUT GETTIN' KRAZY/TRAININ' YOUR DOG/WHICHAWAY DUZ A NUT TURN/BENDIN' KOTTER KEYS CORRECTLY/ETC ????
                        I once got BANNED, fur makin' "FUN" about Kotter Key Bendin'----LOL
                        Bill W.
                        I bend my Model A cotter pins completely different from the way i do on moderns!!
                        3 ~ Tudor's
                        Henry Ford said
                        "It's all nuts and bolts"


                        Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                        Comment


                        • Guest's Avatar
                          Guest commented
                          Editing a comment
                          I've worked for the OEMs for 35 years and never seen a use of a cotter pin.
                          Seriously? They are still used some places?

                      • #22
                        *****,I think you are onto something with extensions possibly altering torque readings. It would seem to me that if you are gonna torque especially at 55 or 65 or beyond that you would want a robust extension device, since the shaft of the extension can itself torque or wind up, altering readings. It is gonna depend heavily on the quality of the tool. We always use 1/2" drive extensions, they are very solid shank. Personally, I take an 11/16 1/2" drive socket, cut it down with a cutoff wheel (whizzer), grab a 3" 1/2" drive extension, and weld the two together. Now I have a special head nut wrench with a slight offset that gets around everything; no more worries that the dizzy is in the way, etc. Solid as can be. I use the same tool to torque all 14 nuts. While there is a slight offset which will theoretically alter the reading, I do not worry since the alteration will be the same for each nut.

                        BTW check your PMs Dave
                        You do not have permission to view this gallery.
                        This gallery has 1 photos.
                        Last edited by tbirdtbird; 06-22-2017, 04:18 PM.

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                        • #23
                          *****, Go to top right of screen, there are three red headings:
                          Notifications, Messages, and your username.
                          Click on Messages, then drop down to the bottom line which says, 'Go to message center'

                          This 'socket' I welded up gets around the dizzy, makes it easier to get at the rear 3 nuts,and makes it easy to get on the 2 water neck nuts. Not sayin' this is the only way, but it has worked very well for us. Have welded up a bunch for friends, too

                          Comment


                          • #24
                            simple service bulletin trivia:
                            Does anyone know why the information starts on page 201?
                            3 ~ Tudor's
                            Henry Ford said
                            "It's all nuts and bolts"


                            Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                            Comment


                            • DaWizard
                              DaWizard commented
                              Editing a comment
                              Possibly because there were 200 pages of Service Bulletins before Jan 1, 1928?

                            • Mitch
                              Mitch commented
                              Editing a comment
                              yep the first 200 pages were for the Model T's and then they just kept rolling when the A's came out

                          • #25
                            Also, did you know some page numbers are missing?
                            I don't recall the month, but I seem to recall it was near the middle.

                            Comment


                            • Mitch
                              Mitch commented
                              Editing a comment
                              thanks Tom now you gave me something to do tomorrow, lol

                            • DaWizard
                              DaWizard commented
                              Editing a comment
                              Well CRAP!! does that mean I have to read it all over again to find the missing pages? Or are we talking about the Green book with missing pages?
                              Last edited by DaWizard; 06-23-2017, 01:56 AM. Reason: can't spell for shit this late in the day!!

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