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  • Banjo Double Bearing Race

    I am working on rebuilding a rear end for my car. When I went to press in the new double race into the banjo in pretty much slid in snugly until the last 1/8". I am wondering if this is a start over moment as I am now at the stage of checking the lash in the mesh of the gears and it seems like the pinion is "floating around" a little. The only way of saving this is if when the torque tube is installed it will hold the race and assembly in place. I have looked closely and the banjo is not cracked at all that I can see. I am hoping for some experienced opinions and thanks to all for responding.

    Jerry

  • #2
    How are you pressing in the new race? You should not press against the banjo housing itself or it can egg shape
    3 ~ Tudor's
    Henry Ford said
    "It's all nuts and bolts"


    Mitch's Auto Service ctr

    Comment


    • #3
      Mitch,
      I tried to press in the new bearing race by supporting the banjo from the inside like in Tom Endy's guide. When I went to put the new one in I was ready to press it in and it just slid into place until the last 1/8". I measured an old race I had at 3.15" and the new race is the same dimension with calipers. I will need to take it back apart to measure the inside of the banjo where the race is now.

      Comment


      • #4
        Well like you said the torque tube holds it in. Your only issue is spinning correct? With some chisel and punch marks along with green loctite it may be just find.
        3 ~ Tudor's
        Henry Ford said
        "It's all nuts and bolts"


        Mitch's Auto Service ctr

        Comment


        • #5
          You might want to look at the Mitchell tool, it installs the pinion bearing as well removing it. They have changed the design of their tool since Tom Endy wrote that procedure. http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/Co...-Tool-1292.pdf You might be able to make this tool yourself, look at the instructions.

          Like Mitch said, you can center punch numerous places inside the banjo and use some retaining compound.

          Comment


          • #6
            I am not sure if I am clear on what is happening.
            It sounds like it needed to be pressed in until the last 1/8" whereby it then just slid the rest of the way in, which seems odd, unless it spun at some point. Or maybe vice-versa.

            If this is true, then I second the answers above. But I am not so sure how much good it will do to set in some punch marks, there is a lot of force there because of the right angle change of the torque. Under load, the forces are trying to basically destroy the diff assembly by splaying everything apart. The bearings are the only thing stopping this, along with a sound casing

            However I do have a lot of faith in the retaining type loctites. There is the red, and there is the sleeve retainer which IIRC is the green. I have never been totally sure of what the diff. is, but they are both very strong.

            BTW be sure the metal is waaay well degreased with several wipes of lacquer thinner on a white rag until the rag wipes clean with no residue. I would even wipe with a high quality urethane reducer after that to get it squeaky clean.

            Given the major difficulty Henry gave us in overhauling the rear end, at this point I would likely remove the race and have the banjo magnafluxed for peace of mind.

            If it checks out, then yes the torque tube will help hold it in, but will not keep it from spinning. I doubt you'll be able to determine preloads properly until it is in there tight
            tbirdtbird
            Banned
            Last edited by tbirdtbird; 12-12-2017, 05:20 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              While some may disagree, there are lots of banjos laying around and they are cheap. I would seek out a another.

              If you have a choice of banjo's select the one the that bolts on the side go in stiff if the threads are clean. These were done with high precision threads and NOS bolts with an NOS housing you would only be able to thread in like 1/4 to 1/2 the way by finger. If they go in all the way either the bolts or the housing were cleaned up with conventional tap and die. You will need to use thread lock/ seal to keep them from leaking or getting loose.

              Comment


              • #8
                "While some may disagree, there are lots of banjos laying around and they are cheap. I would seek out a another. "

                This is also very good advice. You don't want to have to rip into this again 500 miles down the road.
                If nowhere else Steve at Bert's would have one

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks for all the replies. I have two other housings, but only one of them has the gussets that make it a stronger candidate. Does anyone know the outer dimension of the race and the housing where the race presses in, so I can double check both before I reassemble again?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I myself do not have that info.
                    It might be hard to measure the ID accurately, the ID need only be .0005 too wide for it to not grip the race properly (one-half a thousandth).
                    I suspect the race spun in the housing because it was set up too tight. Careful inspection of the ID might reveal this, as would such inspection of the proposed donor housing. Races spun all the time on the diff carrier because of too-tight setups or lack of lube

                    If you had a new race in your hand you could measure the OD of that, then assume the ID of the housing should be .0005-001 narrower. I do not know what Ford would have specified as a press fit tolerance. Maybe Kevin or Mike K could speculate what a press fit tolerance should be

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I bought a new Timken USA this past Saturday that measures 3.152" OD.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        OK, so I took it all back apart today and what I have for the double cup race is a Timken 28314 XD USA that measures 3.149 OD according to my calipers. At this point I am not sure a different banjo would help.

                        Comment


                        • George Miller
                          George Miller
                          RIP
                          The VFF will miss you
                          "Permanent Member"
                          George Miller commented
                          Editing a comment
                          If you are not use to measuring with calipers try it a few times and see if you get the same reading. If you don't your wrong. Mikes are the best for close measurements.

                      • #13
                        WoW that is quite a difference from what Dennis got!!! That is like a mile

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          I had a hard time finding a specification online for the OD, but what I came up with was 3.151", so if my measurements are correct, the race could be .002 under and that might be why it slides in.

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            How is this??

                            https://cad.timken.com/item/category...8156-28314xd-2
                            3 ~ Tudor's
                            Henry Ford said
                            "It's all nuts and bolts"


                            Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                            Comment


                            • tbirdtbird
                              tbirdtbird
                              Banned
                              tbirdtbird commented
                              Editing a comment
                              yep, looks like Timken is calling for 3.151
                              Are you using a dial caliper? or a 4" micrometer

                              In either case be sure to zero it in and locate some type of gauge block to calibrate the measuring device.

                              we keep gauge blocks here to calibrate all our mics. Similar:
                              https://www.amazon.com/HFS-BLOCKS-PR...4G51BEGX64C04K

                              another thought, if a dial caliper is it digital or manual readout? I have found the digital ones to be flaky and don't prefer them
                              tbirdtbird
                              Banned
                              Last edited by tbirdtbird; 12-13-2017, 08:32 PM.

                            • Dennis
                              Dennis
                              Senior Member
                              Dennis commented
                              Editing a comment
                              I was using a dial caliper, no digital here. Don't trust them especially when the numbers go nuts when there is no movement.

                            • George Miller
                              George Miller
                              RIP
                              The VFF will miss you
                              "Permanent Member"
                              George Miller commented
                              Editing a comment
                              To me The dial or digital are not for real close. They take a very good feel, you need to be using them all the time. It is real easy to get them on wrong and use the wrong pressure. I call them guessing sticks.

                          • #16
                            OK, I will try to get an accurate measurement on the double cup race OD. I have digital calipers. I only have micrometers up to 3". What tolerance would Timken have on their dimensions? Mitch, thanks for verifying the 3.151".

                            Comment


                            • #17
                              From the Timken engineering book, anywhere from .0003-.0005-.001
                              depending on the class, and I am not sure what class this particular TDO type bearing is
                              See page 68 of this pdf, table 29, line one is bearings up to 12" diam
                              Timken tolerances.pdf
                              tbirdtbird
                              Banned
                              Last edited by tbirdtbird; 12-13-2017, 10:51 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Jerry Kzoo
                                Jerry Kzoo
                                Member
                                Jerry Kzoo commented
                                Editing a comment
                                Based on this I am sure it is my measuring that is off and I better clean up the other banjo to use it! Thanks to all of you for your comments and help.

                            • #18
                              Jerry, please keep us posted, this is the kind of thread that can help a lot of people, good luck
                              Dave

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