Listing errors contained in the Les Andrews books

[Mitch]

Here is a link to the list of updated corrections, located in the Misc Technical Forum


Let me start out by saying that this is not a bashing party, but a slight correction of info.The VFF is all about providing accurate repair and technical information to it's membership. If something is out there that is in error we will do our best to correct it for the good of all. Case in point is the specification thread in our chassis forum. We saw many errors in it and then made our own corrections. The Les books are up there with the best reference materials available to the hobbyist. They may even be more popular than the Service Bulletins & the RG & JS. I use the red book all the time, it's a great resource and a huge asset to the maintenance and repairing of these cars. Les did a fabulous job with these books, but the last revision was in 2002. What folks need to be aware of are the inaccuracies that have never been corrected. This is so very important for the new people entering the hobby that need to rely on accurate, correct information. This is going to be a very important reference thread for so many which will reside in both tech forums.

So let's post any errors that you know about to help others.

The oil pan torque is in vol 1 page 1-146, 1-226

I'll start out with the oil pan bolt spec listed. The book says torque them to 20 ft lbs, guaranteed to snap
No torque wrench is needed, just choke up on the ratchet handle and work your way around the pan. When you see the gasket start to squeeze or move stop, this works for me.

[tbirdtbird]

EarlyBert recently posted this:
"Model A Ford Mechanic Handbook by Les Andrews Page 1-134 Table 1-5 Engine Assembly Torque Values. Manifold Nuts 45 ft. lbs"

These should be 25-30 ft lbs. The manifolds need to be able to expand/contract with the extreme temp swings they see and will crack or break if too tight.

I view this thread as a chance to correct typos and transcription errors, which are found in all books.

[Mike V. Florida]

I have always held that any torque measurement listed in the book is suspect, l20ike the Oil Pan Torque says 20 Ft Lbs. 5 maybe but not 20.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Pan bolts, if using cork, stop tightening as soon as the cork starts to squish out the side. Recheck the tightness after a week or so. Hand snug is good.

[Mike V. Florida]

Great idea Mitch. On the other site I received a warning when I tried it there.

Let's mention the timing section when the book says the rotor should point opposite the number one contact it means facing it. >1 the Arrow is opposite the number 1 not this way <1. If you time the engine with the rotor opposite number 1 (<1) your timing will be 180 degrees off.

[WMWS]

I think the wording opposite is an unfortunate choice of words. I think he means opposite as in adjacent. The picture shows the rotor in the correct position.

[Mike V. Florida]

The book says to adjust all 4 brake rods to 51-7/16" to 51-1/2" in length from eye to eye centers.....

service bulletins page 202 says to adjust the brake rods by setting all the cross shaft and pedal adjustments first. then adjust the rods by removing the slack from each actuating lever until the clevis holes line up.

[Mitch]

Mike which page is that listed on? i assume its the red book

[DaWizard]

Hey, you know I appreciate all the good work you guys do and I know the Les books are in need of an update. What I would like for you all to do, is please list page in which book you reference so I can change or add to my own books, because I don't know the books well enough to go to the section to make the update.

Thanks, J.C.

[EarlyBert]

Thank you for starting this thread Mitch. It is vital to the survival of the hobby to have good & correct information in all venues. I am not the only one that relies heavily on accurate printed information.

There will be newcomers to the hobby that will suffer the same valuable losses in the future if the corrections are not made in subsequent publications.

It it is inexcusable to allow this mis-information to be reprinted.

[Steve Plucker]

It sure would be nice if the boss himself (Mr. Les Andrews) would step-up and be involved in discussions like this. This question has been raised on the other two sites many times only to die in the saddle and nothing was ever done or been accomplished to put out an errata sheet that I am aware of. There was a fellow who was supposedly compling all the mistakes at one time but he seems to have fallen off the face of the earth.

Les's books...all three...are absolutly great but again, I wish he would submit an errata sheet to the fact of the mistakes within and/or chime in on these discussions.

I for one would sure like to know just why some of these "mistakes" were as such and would like to hear from Les on the subject...we in the hobby are his "eyes" and I sure hope he "hears" us.


Pluck

[Mitch]

Once we have a short list i can organize them into one post for easy access and reference in the two tech areas. These can always be added onto by anyone that runs across more inconsistencies that were missed. Page numbers and in which of the 3 volumes it was found would be helpful.

I remember that some of the fluid fill capacities were wrong, but i will check that out sometime today.

[BNCHIEF]

I might suggest that when you correct something you might mention we are talking about the red book,green book chapter and page, this way when finalized it will be much easier to compile the list this is how we used to update regs in the army. And then you can start at the front and work your way back. Mitch this is a fantastic idea.

[George Miller]

I think the oil pan bolts were a typo. He probably meant 20 inch lbs. But I agree tighten them like Mitch said and they will be fine. I use a 3/8 drive speed handle for that job.

[Mitch]

From what i see that spec was listed on two different pages, which i noted above

Possibly more

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

NO, I didn't "DIE IN THE SADDLE"--Just resting my EYES from reading ALL this!

[Dave in MD]

A great idea to make a great resource even better.
Red Book page 1-301, paragraph 3.C says to use a 3/4 inch wrench and I have found a few to require a 7/8 inch wrench.
Dave

[Kevin in NJ]

There are multiple parts to this whole thing.

First off I will say that his books are a great start. His diagrams are out of this world helpful as well as some of his steps for removal.
With that said here are the things that currently stick in my brain. Been a while since I went through it and I am forgetting a bunch of things I have noted in the past in my mind.

Steering sector shaft diameter is wrong. No excuse here, the print is pretty clear and all the sectors out there are clear. Worse was the wrong info made it into Bratton's catalog.

He should be listing more of the print dimensions for the parts. Without dimensions it is hard to know if you have good or bad parts. Like determining if gears are too loose on the splined shaft. With simple tools and dimensions you can measure the shaft and the inner dimension. He gives you a guide to put oil on the shaft and is the gear slides fast it is too loose. Which oil are you supposed to use? I did that with gears and splines that were fine (each measured about .001" of wear actually a bit less) and they failed by his test.

I am going through the bolts for the engine right now. What he lists for lengths are not the same as in the hardware book and do not match the actual bolt lengths.

So I have seen enough errors in numbers in his book I do not want to trust any of them. I try to check multiple sources anymore to verify numbers. Keep in mind his manual is not the only one with this problem, all of them have some errors. I like to see the prints anymore.

What I think is bad is he has done a bunch of versions and I would have thought he would have corrected these numbers by now. I kind of feel let down because the book is such a great resource and with some checks and additional materials it could be the end all killer book on the A. There is so much info just floating around on the web anymore that is verified that there is just no excuse. Plus he could just ask here for suggestions and erratas and I am sure many people would come out of the wood work to help.

[Mitch]

Kev can you provide a few page numbers and which book when you have time. It will save me some leg work

[Hook1948]

Great idea to get this together. I have also found some of the wrench sizes are wrong, just don't remember where. I'm correcting my book, and in mine Red Book, page 1-301 paragraph 3.C states a 7/8 inch wrench. Is it possible this changed with new revisions? I have the 2002 copy.

[Mitch]

From what i see 2002 was the last revision, for the red book at least... I don't own the others

[BNCHIEF]

I am not sure of the gentlemens age or health but we can all compile the info which is why I mentioned which book chapter etc so Mitch does not have to dig it all out or maybe better members could volunteer to take a chapter and go thru it to help Mitch out here should be a joint effort I am up for it.

[Mitch]

Great idea

[Hook1948]

Mitch, I would be willing to try to keep a running document on the items noted that would be a "living" document if you would like. I could create it in pages (Mac version of Word) and convert it to a pdf document so folks could print it and keep it with the books. In the red book I did note that on page 1-34, Brake Actuating Arm the correct wrench size to remove the spindle locking pin nut is 11/16" instead of 9/16" and the same on page 1-35, number 2 for the actuating arm nut. I have time and would be willing to make more corrections if you point me to the correct reference like the fluid capacities noted above.
Thanks again for staring this, and Happy Birthday! Hook (Larry)

[EarlyBert]

Any chance the compiled corrections could be submitted to the publisher or something like that for the next run? Just a thought.

[plyfor]

Les Andrews may still live in Grass Valley, Ca. and according to the net may be approaching 80. Since his books are copyrighted, it may be prudent if he or his publisher could be in the loop to sanction any changes before posting "corrections".

[tbirdtbird]

I am not so sure that is an issue, to be honest

anyone can publicize what they consider to be errata corrections to anything, there is no money to be made doing it

Eg. if anyone looks up the dose of Advil, and they don't agree with it, there is nothing to stop them from publicizing their opinion

Actually printing a fresh copy with the corrections (and yes they are corrections) and selling it yourself would be in fact an infringement

since there have never been any errata issued i am not sure it makes sense to submit anything to the publisher at this late date. More people have sheared off pan bolts than you can imagine, and it doesn't seem to bother the publisher

[Mitch]

Capacities:

Red Book specification card

Transmission 1 1/2 pints
Differential 2 1/4 pints



Service Bulletins page 375

Transmission 1 pint
Differential 1 1/2 quarts

[aford193031]

It would be great to have all of the corrections on an errata sheet to go with my books. I am always in favor of correcting errors. It is a challenge to always try to make things better.

[Mitch]

Les Andrews may still live in Grass Valley, Ca. and according to the net may be approaching 80. Since his books are copyrighted, it may be prudent if he or his publisher could be in the loop to sanction any changes before posting "corrections".

We're good here
There is no infringement on listing a column of mistakes and a column of accurate corrections, and or mentioning the book or page numbers

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

One that I remember was, "Over RICH will cause manifold OVERHEATING"---WRONG!!! It's caused by over LEAN and/or RETARDED Timing!----I'M retarded, but I don't OVERHEAT, EASILY---LOL

[Mitch]

Do you have a page number to back up your claim?

[tbirdtbird]

Dad's right, and especially on retarded timing

[Mitch]

OH i'm not disputing that he is incorrect. Dad's are never wrong, but a page number of where the wrong info is listed would help me.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Sorry, I don't have a page#---I gave my book to Dave.
Dad