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  • Water or excessive moisture in exhaust port

    I have recently purchased my first Model A. I am replacing the manifold gaskets. I noticed excessive moisture in the 3rd exhaust port from the front. What could be the significance of this?

  • #2
    I would re-torque the head before jumping to any conclusions.

    Not sure what exactly you mean by excessive moisture. Actual water puddling, just a damp feeling to your finger, we assume the other 3 ports are bone dry.
    Has the car used excessive coolant? Is there white smoke coming from the tail pipe? water in the oil?

    I would still re-torque. The most common engine issue I see in this shop is cylinder heads that need re-torquing. Assuming a stock 4.2 compression head, 55# is the torque value you want. There is a pattern that must be followed. You need to be careful to go up in torque in 5# increments, especially because of the water neck; the ears can break off easily.
    You do not indicate your mechanical experience. If you have not done anything like this let us know and we will walk you thru it. There are many qualified posters here that are more than willing to help.

    I can almost guarantee at least one nut is not tight enough.
    Whether to torque when the engine is hot or cold is one of the most debateable subjects on the planet. The Service Bulletins specify to torque hot. It may not matter. I only bring it up so that we can put it to bed immediately!

    Also, do not over tighten the 4 manifold retainer nuts. 25-30 ft-lbs is all you need. That manifold exhibits significant expansion and contraction due to exhaust heat and needs to be able to move around underneath the clamping system. If you overtighten, you can easily crack a manifold or break an ear off.

    Also, Mitch has set up an incredible technical reference section on this forum, unlike any other, with input from various recognized Model A experts. You won't be sorry to scan thru it at your leisure!
    Last edited by tbirdtbird; 11-06-2017, 08:27 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      All other ports are dry. This one is more than just damp but it wasn't enough to run down the block when I pulled the manifold away. I haven't noticed any smoke of any sort from the exhaust. I haven't driven it enough to watch the coolant and I just replaced the coolant hoses.

      I am not a mechanic but I have a high mechanical ability. I just replaced the clutch recently and have worked on my own older vehicles for many years.
      Last edited by EarlyBert; 11-06-2017, 08:41 PM. Reason: Updated my reply after reading thirds post completly.

      Comment


      • #4
        What is the reason why you decided to replace the manifold gaskets?
        3 ~ Tudor's
        Henry Ford said
        "It's all nuts and bolts"


        Mitch's Auto Service ctr

        Comment


        • EarlyBert
          EarlyBert commented
          Editing a comment
          My Model A guru from my local club suggested that the manifold gasket was rotten by looking & listening.

      • #5
        WoW! a clutch job in an A is no small matter at all!
        I'd say you are more qualified more than most A owners.

        One of the better suppliers to the hobby is Bratton's, it would be worth your while to get their catalogue. They have many helpful drawings, and a torque table and a torque sequence. All of this should be available on-line, too

        One of many reasons I like to re-torque hot, especially on an unknown motor (one that I did not myself personally assemble (i am an engine builder) is you have a better chance of the nut not being frozen to the stud; thus making it easier to torque properly.

        Do you have a welder? If so I can post a pic of a special offset socket I made to be able to get at the nut by the dizzy, so that you do not have to remove it.
        You can use a crowsfoot socket wrench on that nut also, and I can post a pic of that. Let me know.

        The other thing on an A, until you become familiar with the peculiarities, is to not be in a rush to do something. A patient person will reap great rewards.
        Dave

        Comment


        • EarlyBert
          EarlyBert commented
          Editing a comment
          I am being more patient than other vehicles mostly because I only want to do it once. I just want to go driving but it needs some things.

      • #6
        http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/tighteningsequence.htm

        This is what I use for torque sequence.
        You wana look waaay far up da road and plan yer route because the brakes are far more of a suggestion than a command!

        Comment


        • EarlyBert
          EarlyBert commented
          Editing a comment
          Printed this and I will be using it in my garage next time I go out to work on the car.

        • BNCHIEF
          BNCHIEF commented
          Editing a comment
          Your new avatar is cool

          wiz find a lot of horsepower in that new alternator?

      • #7
        C51B318B-D4CC-4338-8D75-AD093097A4F9L0001.jpg
        3 ~ Tudor's
        Henry Ford said
        "It's all nuts and bolts"


        Mitch's Auto Service ctr

        Comment


        • #8
          Thanks, Mitch. Another potential issue to sidestep immediately: there are those that advocate loosening head nuts before re-torquing them. Their reasoning is theoretical, and has no place in the real world of car mechanics. There is not a single living actual mechanic who would ever do this. No matter what anyone tells you, do NOT do this.

          Also, on a model A, you should never loosen any head nuts without first draining the coolant down below the level of the head which is close to a gallon. A motors are famous for losing coolant into the oil pan with loosening just one nut.
          After you re-torque you may want to loosen your pan drain plug and just crack it to see it any coolant comes out before the oil starts to flow. This method works because oil floats on water.

          have a good day!

          Comment


          • EarlyBert
            EarlyBert commented
            Editing a comment
            Good point. Thank you I will be checking that also

        • #9
          Maybe its MMO or some other type of fuel additive that you see in the port who knows. Get it back together all torqued up and you will learn more as you monitor things and go along.
          3 ~ Tudor's
          Henry Ford said
          "It's all nuts and bolts"


          Mitch's Auto Service ctr

          Comment


          • #10
            Good luck, and keep us posted

            Comment


            • #11
              A GENERAL "RULE OF THUMB" for re-torqueing: Start in the MIDDLE & work out, in a CIRCLE
              Dad

              Comment


              • #12
                Ok, so the latest on this is that I retorqued he head bolts. Number 4 on the drawing was about 15lbs loose. I had also noticed some rust around this one also. Then I replaced the manifold gaskets & glands, & torqued to spec about 10lbs at a time in an even pattern back & forth.

                All good so far. I fired up the ol' girl & warmed her up. Then shut her down & went to work on something else on my bench. After about 20 minutes I heard a pop, like something fell in the engine compartment are. I glanced over & couldn't think of anything so kept working at my bench.

                Curiousity got the better of me so I took a flashlight over to inspect the engine compartment..........

                And there it was. A gnaly crack half way around the circumference of the exhaust manifold in front of the rear port.
                Apparently my manifold was warped to start with, which was probably contributing to the extra noise.

                fortunately my brother is a purveyor of Model T parts & frequently acquires Model A parts. He has a replacement manifold for me. Any recommendations for making sure the replacement isn't warped? Maybe my local machine shop?

                Comment


                • Mitch
                  Mitch commented
                  Editing a comment
                  An advantage to going with new manifolds is that they go right on without needing to be planed or worrying about droop. If you figure out the overall cost difference vs the end appearance and fit i usually take the new route.

              • #13
                the manifold nuts may have been too tight, you only want 25-30 ft-lbs

                Comment


                • EarlyBert
                  EarlyBert commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Hmm, Model A Ford Mechanic Handbook by Les Andrews Page 1-134 Table 1-5 Engine Assembly Torque Values. Manifold Nuts 45 ft. lbs. Dry torque values.
                  I don't want to crack another one so I invite any & all input.
                  Last edited by EarlyBert; 11-25-2017, 11:18 PM. Reason: Looked at the wrong torque line just now. Corrected to 45

              • #14

                Bert
                That is a mistake in the Les book and was never corrected. There are other things as well such as the oil pan bolt torque values listed..This chart is in our chassis tech area
                https://www.vintagefordforum.com/for...-w-corrections

                Personally i don't use a torque wrench on anything on these cars except for the head nuts

                I go by common sense feel
                3 ~ Tudor's
                Henry Ford said
                "It's all nuts and bolts"


                Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                Comment


                • CarlG
                  CarlG commented
                  Editing a comment
                  It's not just torque values that are incorrect in Les's book. This past week I was taking my brakes apart. Reading Les's book he says "remove xxx bolt (using a 9/16 wrench) . . . Good information except that it took a 5/8 wrench. This happened every time he quoted a wrench size -- in that section anyway.

              • #15
                I only use a torque wrench for mains, rods, and the head. Everything else just use a box wrench and common sense.

                Comment


                • Mitch
                  Mitch commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I forgot about the mains and rods,, what Tom said

                  But i'll use a ratchet ,ext and socket too

                • George Miller
                  George Miller commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I also only use the torque wrench on mains, rods, head, camshaft gear, and flywheel. Back in my Dads garage I did have a torque wrench. We manage to build a lot of engines with out one. Common sense works.
                  Last edited by George Miller; 11-26-2017, 09:14 AM.

              • #16
                This helps a lot guys. I am making notes of the corrections in my book also so the next person doesn't bit. I have a tendency to over tighten which is why I try to follow torque spec when I can find it.

                Comment


                • #17
                  Unfortunately that book contains numerous errors which have not been corrected thru many reprintings.
                  I'm with you, I tend to overtighten also.
                  The manifolds are subject to very wide temp swings and need to be able to expand and contract (lengthen and shorten) under the clamping system. There is a decent amount of motion going on there. If too tightly attached, something can crack or break.

                  As Mitch pointed out, the pan bolt spec given is way off, and distort the crap out of the pan, or break the bolts.
                  Years ago, there was an attempt to compile the errors but it somehow got derailed

                  Comment


                  • EarlyBert
                    EarlyBert commented
                    Editing a comment
                    That's just not right! I would think they would make the necessary corrections in subsequent printings.

                  • tbirdtbird
                    tbirdtbird commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Most of us could not agree more
                    All it would take would be an insert sheet with the corrections.

                    One of the issues about Model A info out there in various books, forums, etc has been the accuracy of the info, and the source of the info. Myths, rumor, and hard-to-let-go misunderstandings have long ruled the hobby. One of Mitch's strengths here is that he has tried very hard to sidestep all of that 'noise' and provide a forum with recognized experienced hands-on experts and rock solid info that you can take to the bank. Some other places have advice given by people who have never carried out the task in question, so how do they really know?

                    Frankly, Mitch himself has a boatload of hard experience under his belt, after all he is a mechanic by trade and has to guarantee his work
                    Last edited by tbirdtbird; 11-26-2017, 10:32 AM.

                • #18
                  Just wondering about the washers I have seen many installed incorrect please check before you reinstall

                  Comment


                  • EarlyBert
                    EarlyBert commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Yes, they are sort of cupped & the cup side toward the flange/head.

                • #19
                  yep, concave side needs to be toward the block. I originally said flat side. On many vintage cars I have seen them flat both sides.

                  I just looked this weekend at a rim from a '47 Stude someone bolted back on the axle, and they had put the cone side of the lugnuts facing OUT, yikes.
                  Last edited by tbirdtbird; 11-26-2017, 10:21 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #20
                    Maybe this is a good lesson for everyone.

                    Be be sure you check your nuts frequently!

                    Comment


                    • #21
                      Pulled the manifolds tonight & low and behold, there was my new crack and s second much older crack kinda behind the intake that I hadn't seen before. It was much older & almost looked like e blow out. Maybe from a backfire?

                      Funny thing too, the bolts holding the intake to the exhaust are smaller than half inch. Larger than 7/16. I ended up at 12mm with a very nice fit. The bolts are pretty well seized so I will be replacing both manifolds.

                      This is is turning into quite the adventure for excess moisture in a port. Sheesh!

                      Comment


                      • #22
                        You know Bert, this seems like the perfect opportunity to install a heater manifold. After all, you are in an area that sees winter.

                        I would count this as a good thing.
                        You wana look waaay far up da road and plan yer route because the brakes are far more of a suggestion than a command!

                        Comment


                        • #23
                          Originally posted by Mitch View Post
                          Bert
                          That is a mistake in the Les book and was never corrected. There are other things as well such as the oil pan bolt torque values listed..This chart is in our chassis tech area
                          https://www.vintagefordforum.com/for...-w-corrections

                          Personally i don't use a torque wrench on anything on these cars except for the head nuts

                          I go by common sense feel
                          Has always worked for me.

                          Comment


                          • #24
                            At one point years ago there was an effort to list all the mistakes in the book. Then folks could make the appropriate corrections on their pages. That effort was cut short as many said it was bashing or beating up on a great resource . Personally i use the red book, it's one of the best information sources out there.
                            I have also seen folks get screwed up by the mistakes

                            Thoughts?
                            3 ~ Tudor's
                            Henry Ford said
                            "It's all nuts and bolts"


                            Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                            Comment


                            • EarlyBert
                              EarlyBert commented
                              Editing a comment
                              I don't think it is good practice to keep reprinting bad information. Especially with new people coming into the hobby. I am new to this & am very displeased to find out that a reference book printed specifically for us all has known mistakes and the effort of making corrections is interpreted as bashing the author!! That is just wrong. Known misinformation has no place in any realm.

                            • Mitch
                              Mitch commented
                              Editing a comment
                              I agree with you 100%

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