A couple of questions on spark timing.

[Manager]

I'm going to set the timing as per Tom's post . It has got to the stage my car won't run sweet unless the advance /retard is in the last 3 clicks all the way retarded.(down) I'm thinking the timing needs reseting? I checked the working of the lever and it is working correctly as in all the way up just on one side of the slot all the way down just on the other side. Am I on the right track or is it more likely to be something else,timing gear or something?

[Mike V. Florida]

Yes you are on the right track. Here is another place to find timing information,

[Mitch]

Def make sure your timing is set to specs first.. going down with the lever is advanced up is retarded.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Def make sure your timing is set to specs first.. going down with the lever is advanced up is retarded.

Also, note that the rotor turns CCW and the spark happens the instant the points OPEN.

Since your timing seems to be quite retarded, I'm thinking someone must have been confused about the direction of the rotor, or at what time the spark happens during the points opening and closing.

[Beauford]

It seems like it was running fine before, right? what has been changed?

[Big hammer]

Check the points gap first, before messing with your timing !

[Manager]

It runs fine but over the last couple of months it gradually has needed the lever to be further down(advanced not retarded as Mitch pointed out) to run fine.The lever hasn't been past half way up for a month . I replaced the manifold gasket yesterday and had trouble starting it and it won't start if the lever is more than 3 or 4 clicks up from the bottom and runs sweet 0 to 1 click up. But this has gradually been happening and not thinking it's anything to do with the gasket replacement. I will do it exactly as per Tom's instructions in the tech section and Model a basics and check cap gap and set the points first and go from there. Thanks, John.

[Mitch]

starting with the basics as you suggested is the first step. yes point gap first (Big hammer) and ck for no side play movement in the dist shaft which will screw up your points adjustment.. usually when the timing gears have jumped the compression will show low when doing a compression test...

[tbirdtbird]

as the points rubbing block changes, the timing changes.
so, as above, check the points gap first. be sure you lube the dizzy cam with a very thin coat of hi-temp grease to slow down the wear rate eg

https://www.amazon.com/CRC-SL3301-Synthetic-Caliper-Grease/dp/B000M8Q234

With a correct gap of .020, and the timing then properly set, all you ever need to do again is re-check the gap every 500 miles or so

[Dennis]

Assuming you have a RH drive steering. What direction does your points plate turn when you raise and lower the spark advance lever?

[Manager]

Car is LHD. The points are stuffed. The rubbing block is worn so much that the points won't close when set to 20 thou.They were at about 10. They have acctually been rubbing on the left hand rivet that holds the block if you look closely. I feel like an idiot not checking the simple things much earlier and thinking of something more complex. Everything else in the dist feels and looks good.

[Mike V. Florida]

Car is LHD. The points are stuffed. The rubbing block is worn so much that the points won't close when set to 20 thou.They were at about 10. They have actually been rubbing on the left-hand rivet that holds the block if you look closely. I feel like an idiot not checking the simple things much earlier and thinking of something more complex. Everything else in the dist feels and looks good.

NO, an idiot is one that lets it happen over and over, not just once. If making an error once is the sign of an idiot then count me, and everyone one else here in.

[tbirdtbird]

a decreased gap will retard the timing, which is why you had to compensate by moving the lever further down.
Meaning, as the rubbing block wears, the timing will slowly retard, and engine performance will suffer.

Those innocent looking little points are the heart and soul of the ignition system. (a genius LC system, brainchild of Kettering)

[Patrick]

Car is LHD. The points are stuffed. The rubbing block is worn so much that the points won't close when set to 20 thou.They were at about 10. They have acctually been rubbing on the left hand rivet that holds the block if you look closely. I feel like an idiot not checking the simple things much earlier and thinking of something more complex. Everything else in the dist feels and looks good.

Yep, that can happen.
Either the rubbing block is defective/soft, or, most likely as has been mentioned, there was a lack of lube applied.

[Big hammer]

Manager congrats to you for getting your car back on the road, without a lot of work, parts, or money ! You knew that there was a problem you where adjusting for the wear, you just need help finding the issue ! :-)

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Chief,my Dad, taught me to set the timing, by EAR!
IF you have these sounds, it's perfect!
1 Spark UP, a SMOOTH rhythmical sound, like, TADA-TADA-TADA-TADA.
2 Spark HALFWAY DOWN, a FASTER, smooth idle.
3 Spark FULLY DOWN, an even FASTER but somewhat "rolling" idle.
IF you have these sounds, it's PERFECT! Some MINOR corrections may be needed to obtain these sounds.
The supplied cam turning tool helps you make MINOR corrections, using your BIG fingers makes it hard!
SOME NOTES: ALWAYS adjust your idle mixture with a SLOW idle & spark UP, until you get the SMOOTHEST, RYTHMICAL sound. IF your GAV affects your idle, YOU'RE IDLING TOO FAST!
IF you're getting abnormal/uneven rubbing block wear, OFTEN, the brass pivot post for the point arm is LOOSE & WOBBLY. BOTH of mine were LOOSE! They can be tightened by removing the upper plate & re-stake them with a BLUNT center punch & a TAP-TAP-TAP!
IF proper sounds gradually change, just properly re-gap the points & you'll be "OFF & RUNNING"
Model As DONT "JUMP" timing, unless the cam screw is LOOSE!
The Dog helped me REMEMBER all this CRAP.
Bill W. & Buster T.

[Mitch]

right on pop,,, thats real world timing right there

[DaWizard]

No school like the Old School !

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I'm a REAL WORLD Dude, NO WOO-WOO B.S!
KDad

[Manager]

Thanks Bill, as always your words are gold.

[BNCHIEF]

When I started mechanicing 40 years good mechanics told me generally when you find the problem it will be something simple do not read tooo much into the problem. spark fuel air.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Thanks Bill, as always your words are gold.

The Dog "sez"--"ALL that SHINES, is not GOLD"----
Bill W.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Repeated, new confusing Forum questions on "PRECISE" Model A spark timing is no doubt here to stay forever.

After reading and studying all methods and all recommendations thus far written or heard for the past 50 years on how to time Model A's, this most simple "FINAL-TMIING-CHECK" check below .......... ( written (3) years ago on Model A FB on 6/26/2014 12:31 p.m. ) ........... is performed "WITH" the spark handle retarded and all the way up, and "WITHOUT" the use of a timing tool or timing light, without studying rotor/distributor position, without remembering CCW rotation of rotor, and also, proper and correct precise Model A timing can be verified with a loose distributor shaft, loose distributor body, a loose rotor, and a loose anything.

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Hi Joe 31,

FWIW; Simple Quick Timing Check ....... "After Initial timing".

First, sorry to hear the new distributor parts did not fit -- this can be most frustrating for all of us.

1. But just assume one is out on the highway & he did not bring his timing light to test his timing; & he has back & forth play, (CW & CCW), in the distributor shaft & he wants to "double-check" his or someone else's initial timing.

2. After initial timing according to whoever's advice whether verbal or written, with or without lots of shaft play, a simple "accurate" subsequent timing test can easily be performed.

3. It is best to remove 4 plugs so engine hand cranks easily, & rotate engine until timing pin slips in. At this point with no plugs, the fan can be used to slightly rotate engine back & forth. ("I'll get murdered on this advice, but I'm not bothered.")

4. With distributor fully assembled, switch "ON", connect removed plug no. 1, lay it on its side for a good ground, & position same such that one can see the gap.

5. Rotate engine back & forth very slightly with fan blade -- when timing pin hits bottom of timing gear recess, plug no. 1 should fire at this very moment -- try rotating it back & forth several times until you feel certain it is correct.

Hope this helps to avoid concern about backlash, misaligned points, loose rotor, screwed up distributor cap, or whatever else can & will go wrong, etc., etc. with anyone's initial timing.

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Just hope this can help anyone to actually "SEE" precise "SPARK TIMING" in action just in case any or all other methods are in doubt ..... maybe try keeping a copy in your Model A to check a future friend's precise timing.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

An EXPERIENCED mechanic can turn the engine a few degrees, using the fan, without DAMAGING it! SOME just don't ADMIT it.
I'm very EXPERIENCED, except at TIPIN' & SPELIN'---LOL
I LIKE being a JUNIOR MEMBER, makes me feel YOUNG!--LOL---Whin do I become a SENIOR MEMBER???
Bill Ignorant

[Big hammer]

Thanks HL !
Bill sorry to tell you your a senior:-) oh you mint here on VFF have a wonderful day! To you both!

[Mitch]

if you turn the motor by the fan blade just watch out that the belt does not loosen. Being the Model A only has a lower mounting bolt it can easily move.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

if you turn the motor by the fan blade just watch out that the belt does not loosen. Being the Model A only has a lower mounting bolt it can easily move.

Chief taught me to center punch the sides of the block mount & tighten it with an 17" FLEX handle!!!
ALSO, suppliers have a neato adjusting bracket that pushes against the SIDE of the DYNAMO!
Tight KDad

[Mitch]

im talikn about us purest without the bracket
K-soonout