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  • Did not know this could happen

    Dropped the oil pan today as a part of getting Eleanor back on the road. The pan was better than expected but the oil pump screen was horrendous. Somebody cleaned the pan and forgot all about the oil pump.

  • #2
    Now that is some downright nasty muck. A nice way to starve the engine of lubrication
    3 ~ Tudor's
    Henry Ford said
    "It's all nuts and bolts"


    Mitch's Auto Service ctr

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm looking at that and thinking where did that come from. Could that be from a laminated camshaft gear? I'd check the cam gear for wear and gear tooth backlash.

      Comment


      • #4
        To me it looks like old fashion sludge, caused from non detergent oil, and or running to cold
        3 ~ Tudor's
        Henry Ford said
        "It's all nuts and bolts"


        Mitch's Auto Service ctr

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mitch View Post
          To me it looks like old fashion sludge, caused from non detergent oil, and or running to cold
          The color yes, but I see fibers sticking out viewing the sides of the screen.
          (Comment button gone again?)

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          • #6
            def check timing gear, the fiber ones love to shread

            comment button is broken

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            • #7
              Thanks for posting this photo.

              Telling us a details about Eleanor's history combined with your photo could become a most interesting and very educational subject about Model A maintenance.

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              • #8
                Sounds feasible guys, maybe it’s both. Curious to hear the lab testing reports
                3 ~ Tudor's
                Henry Ford said
                "It's all nuts and bolts"


                Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                Comment


                • #9
                  The problem is that I don't know Eleanor's history. Without any background information, I decided to check everything and fix things that were not right. Last fall I found the totally worn down valve guide as one example and the oil pump screen was the second bad thing. The timing gear looks in perfect shape so the fibers can't be from there. I am wondering if the screen was not replaced during an earlier rebuild and that the sludge crap has been around for quite a while?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tudor31 View Post
                    The problem is that I don't know Eleanor's history. Without any background information, I decided to check everything and fix things that were not right. Last fall I found the totally worn down valve guide as one example and the oil pump screen was the second bad thing. The timing gear looks in perfect shape so the fibers can't be from there. I am wondering if the screen was not replaced during an earlier rebuild and that the sludge crap has been around for quite a while?
                    It may be from a previous gear failure, sludge or a combo of things. At least you noticed it
                    3 ~ Tudor's
                    Henry Ford said
                    "It's all nuts and bolts"


                    Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Agree with previous timing gear failure.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I have learned that when buying any vintage, antique vehicle, (naturally always "used"), one never knows what to expect, not from only the previous owner, but from years further back.

                        Thank goodness you are one of the few, new Model A owners who has the gift of wisdom to look inside and investigate. When I bought my 1930 Briggs Town Sedan, (wood frame), after dropping the oil pan I found about 1-1/2" to 2" of sludge in oil pan, 3/4" in valve chamber.

                        Former owner, (car collector who, I found was very honest in relating the car's history), said he bought this car, kept it in storage for 30 years, did absolutely no restoration, and only drove it no more than 200 miles. The owner before him said he bought it from a widow living in Kansas, and that the former owner related that this wood bodied car was never left out of doors.

                        He said he had no mechanical ability, previously thought a Model A would increase in value in 30 years; but after offering it for sale, many came to see it adjacent to Fort Hood Texas, but nobody made an offer. He showed me where he was selling it for exactly what he paid for it. After driving it, after recently visiting and looking at several other (4) doors, and after previously having driven a Model A for about 50 years, I gladly paid his asking price.

                        I later found that the engine sat for a long period to where one side, (bottom side), of the cam shaft had collected condensate moisture, and rusted to where it had deep rust pits; however Babbitt was excellent and only needed one shim removed on a few bearings.

                        Please keep in touch in reporting all of the Model A "surprises" that you find ........... reminds me of prizes advertised in former (5) cent Cracker-Jack boxes years ago.

                        Lots of guys will be willing to help with your Model A "surprises", that is, if you need help!
                        Last edited by H. L. Chauvin; 03-22-2019, 10:55 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Did a post mortem today and the attached picture shows the result. It must have been a real timing gear failure with all the fibers stuck to the screen. It appears as if the screen was clean before the gear failure since the oil gunk seemed to be on the outside of the fibers. Thanks to all for the input, views and suggestions!

                          Just my opinion, but it is very nice to be able to have such a civilized and polite conversation as on the VFF. Thanks Mitch and thanks to all contributors.

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                          • #14
                            Thank you so much for sharing your findings.
                            All this information will certainly help all Model A owners. . Jeff
                            Twiss Collector Car Parts

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                            • #15
                              Wow! What art work you have in above photo?

                              Top left image looks like Africa below, Europe above, with Great Britain to the left.

                              Below looks like a pigeon sitting on a Model A owner's head.

                              Next below looks like a crocodile or alligator about to attack a Model A owner because he has whitewall tires.

                              Below left looks like a Model A owner falling out of a tree.

                              I better stop here before someone calls the white coats to visit me!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by H. L. Chauvin View Post
                                Wow! What art work you have in above photo?

                                Top left image looks like Africa below, Europe above, with Great Britain to the left.

                                Below looks like a pigeon sitting on a Model A owner's head.

                                Next below looks like a crocodile or alligator about to attack a Model A owner because he has whitewall tires.

                                Below left looks like a Model A owner falling out of a tree.

                                I better stop here before someone calls the white coats to visit me!
                                All those ink blots just look like cats "doing it" to me. Well....that's what I tell the nice lady in the white lab coat. Jeff
                                Twiss Collector Car Parts

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by JDupuis View Post

                                  All those ink blots just look like cats "doing it" to me. Well....that's what I tell the nice lady in the white lab coat. Jeff
                                  This is like the old joke where after the ink blot test the patient says to the psychiatrist “ don’t blame me, you’re the one with the dirty pictures”

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by JDupuis View Post

                                    All those ink blots just look like cats "doing it" to me. Well....that's what I tell the nice lady in the white lab coat. Jeff
                                    Jeff you made me spit my watermelon drink out.But I do have to agree with you on the cats.

                                    The inkblot test (also called the "Rorschach" test) is a method of psychological evaluation. Psychologists use this test in an attempt to examine the personality characteristics and emotional functioning of their patients. ... During the test you will be shown a series of ink blot images.

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                                    • #19
                                      Scrapping off the composite head gasket can result in bits dropping into holes. Copper on both sides is much better.

                                      I found much the same after dropping the pan.

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                                      • #20
                                        Too many people just change out the timing gear and do not clean out the valve chamber or yank the pan.

                                        Such contamination is enough by itself to make me never want to use another fiber gear....they WILL fail, the only question is when

                                        This thread is proof of the complications

                                        Comment


                                        • #21
                                          After about (20) years of reading about continuing, hundreds of Model A engine restoration failures on Model A Forums, can anyone imagine a typical Model A engine restorer, (or Model A owner who does his own engine restoration), going to college today and changing professions? .................. For example:

                                          Model A Engine Restorer A: He becomes a surgeon who cleans carotid arteries. The left artery on Patient A looked as clean as his Model A oil pan .....yes, good enough ...... Patient A died the next day!

                                          Model A Engine Restorer B: He now performs heart bypass surgery to where a few clots developed on Patient B. Like with his Model A valve chamber and oil pan, he removes only a few clots. Next day during the autopsy, Patient B's heart valve looks like the oil pump screen in above Message #1.

                                          Really? ........................ I mean, what part of
                                          "Clean" during any engine restoration is so difficult to understand?

                                          If anyone enters a modern hospital operating room today and sees his Heart Surgeon wearing a
                                          MAFCA Cap ......... would it ..... or would it not be wise to say, "No Thanks!"

                                          Comment


                                          • #22
                                            The oil pump has been properly maintained, meaning new screen and new bushings following a complete cleaning. The oil pan is back in place and oil has been added. Everything seemed to be complete and all the parts in place. Time to start up after the long a and cold winter. What a sweet event, she ran nice and smooth and the drive was pure joy. It is wonderful when a plan comes together...

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