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  • Ken Parker
    replied
    Now that's doin it right. ken

    Leave a comment:


  • BillLee/Chandler, TX
    replied
    Charlie is QUITE understanding and he thought right off why the flange was bent, figured (as I had guessed) that the crank had probably been dropped on the flange at one time. He showed me what they would do to true up the flange, then the flywheel and then balance the whole shebang. Gave me a tour of the separate room where he does balancing. Said that we'd be within one gram when finished!

    Leave a comment:


  • Ken Parker
    replied
    Did Charlie make any comments when you told him what you needed done, and why???

    Leave a comment:


  • Mitch
    commented on 's reply
    Keep us posted on the findings.. thanks

  • DaWizard
    commented on 's reply
    X10

    If you don't do it right the first time, you WILL do it right the second time!

  • BillLee/Chandler, TX
    replied
    I made the decision over the weekend to get it all right! Today I pulled the crankshaft out of the engine. Tomorrow, it, the flywheel and the new pressure plate will be off to Charlie Ray's shop. Will have him true up the crank flange, check the flywheel and true if necessary and then balance it all.

    Oh, I could have just bolted it back together and it would have been "all right", but I'd be thinking about it forever. Best to just get it done properly now.

    Leave a comment:


  • George Miller
    commented on 's reply
    I see what you are saying now. Looks like a bent flange. I would try bolting the flywheel on and see what kind of run out on the face and OD of the flywheel.

  • tbirdtbird
    replied
    Bill, you gave an explanation of what you were up to as a comment and I did not see it until today, sorry

    Leave a comment:


  • George Miller
    replied
    Originally posted by BillLee/Chandler, TX View Post
    This picture is the "runout" of the crank flange.
    IMG_20181106_091629A.jpg
    If you click on the image you should get a full-size view. You will see that there are three numbers written at each location where I measured the runout. For three of the locations, those numbers were all zero, but at the fourth, they were 0, -2, and -4 (thousandths) measured from the center to the outer edge.

    I do not have the concentricity measurements for the flange nor the flywheel, and it will be this weekend before I can get back to it.


    Yes.



    Will get in a few days.
    If you have .004 there at the face it is going to be running out a lot on the outer edge of the flywheel. that will cause a viberation.

    Leave a comment:


  • tbirdtbird
    replied
    What is missing here are the symptoms which triggered you to take all these measurements.
    I seriously do not think the engine builders here can adequately counsel you under these circumstances.
    There was a very vague mention of vibration at some point, but if that is the issue, there were no details provided, such as, at what speed, hot or cold, idle or under load, using the clutch or not, etc etc.

    I feel we could be way more helpful.

    As far as generic causes of vibration, the list is as long as your arm.
    1. Pistons not balanced to each other. Pistons out of the box are notorious for being at varying weights. Egge pistons, for example, are famous for being off by as much as 30 g
    2. rods not balanced to each other, which includes using equipment that can weigh the big end separately from the small end
    3. improperly balanced crank
    4. For an A, the FW and PP are typically balanced together, and not when bolted to the crank
    5. too much advance. Timing that is too advanced, but not so far as to cause ping, will trigger vibration, since the engine is fighting itself
    6. unequal compression amongst cylinders
    etc

    As has been stated, a four banger engine is inherently unstable, and needs all the help you can give it in terms of balancing. The physics of the rotating mass will not be denied. Look up harmonics for starters. Harmonics are what brought down the Tacoma Narrows bridge in 1940. (also known as Galloping Gertie)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zczJXSxnw
    This incredible video is shown in every physics and engineering class

    A 6-cylinder motor, or a multiple of 6, is inherently the most stable configuration.
    There are many aspiring 'engine builders' out there who are guilty of just grabbing the pistons out of the box, shoving them in the holes, and calling it good.

    I raise all these points with the hope of increasing awareness on the part of the forum members.
    Even if you never build an engine, you will be able to talk intelligently to your engine builder, and do not let him talk you out of any of these important points, instead, go elsewhere.

    The lifespan of your engine bearings depends on a good balance
    Last edited by tbirdtbird; 11-09-2018, 08:00 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • tbirdtbird
    commented on 's reply
    I can't really see what they did from the pic

  • George Miller
    commented on 's reply
    Yes I do Bill .0005 is the speck on run out, you have 63 lbs that will be running out, that will cause a lot of shaking. That is a normal run out speck.

  • Mitch
    commented on 's reply
    Beautiful... As long as it's not an E-clip

  • BillLee/Chandler, TX
    replied
    Got my new pressure plate today. The release lever fulcrum pin is held neither by an E-clip NOR a cotterpin! Instead, the end of the pin is split and then spread after installation. IMG_20181108_184453A.jpg

    Anybody have any concerns about this method? I don't think the pin is going to come out!

    Leave a comment:


  • BillLee/Chandler, TX
    commented on 's reply
    All measurements were made with the nose of the engine pointing down to keep the crank tight to the thrust bearing.

    Do really mean .0005 (i.e. a half thousandths)?

  • BillLee/Chandler, TX
    commented on 's reply
    Prompted: when I measured the runout of the flywheel at the edge of the disk contact area, I found .005" from one edge to the other. All of the measurements of the crankshaft flange are simply to try and understand where it's coming from.

  • BillLee/Chandler, TX
    commented on 's reply
    I suspect the crank was dropped or hit with a hammer or something in its 90 year history. If you look closely at the picture you can see a couple of spots that are depressed, like where it might have been hit.

  • BillLee/Chandler, TX
    commented on 's reply
    Yes, those are runout when measured at the edge of the pilot bearing hole, (.000"), just inside the bolt holes (-.002"), ad then at the outer edge of the flange (-.004").

  • George Miller
    replied
    well that is a lot to think about. are you turning the crank to measure the flange? Run out on the OD of the flange is .0005 I would not want any more than .0005 on flange run out also. But that is hard to measure. The crank can move flange in and out when you turn the engine. best way is to turn the engine with the front of the engine pointing down.

    When it comes to engines every thing should be put back in the same place it was before. The pressure plate should be marked and put back like it was before. If they were balanced together and you do not put them back the way they were it is going vibrate. Engines look simple, but the A is hard to get right, especially after 90 years of people working on them and not always doing the job right. I see the cranks off the original center line, not square with the top of block, bearings not bored in line with each other. another thing that you see all the time is the cylinders are bored off there original location. That happens when some locates the boring bar to take the least amount out of the cylinder to clean up the bore,not good.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mitch
    commented on 's reply
    Sorry but I'm not in on this tire bubble balancing a flywheel deal.

  • tbirdtbird
    replied
    Calling George Miller, interested in hearing your thoughts on all this

    Leave a comment:


  • tbirdtbird
    commented on 's reply
    OK, thanks for that, the pic is making a little more sense now. But how can the runout at the same location be either 0, -2, and -4.
    Unless these are deviations radially from the center?

    I would think the outer perimeter would be the most important number.
    If that is the case then someone dropped the crank on the floor.

    A most interesting question would be what prompted you to take all these measurements
    Last edited by tbirdtbird; 11-07-2018, 10:09 AM.

  • DaWizard
    replied
    Bill, what I would do is clean the crank good, install the flywheel and see what the runout on the flywheel is, or if there is any at all. I can't give you a specific number as a base, but if II had runout more than about .010 at the clutch surface I would probably do something about it.

    But that is just me.

    Leave a comment:


  • BillLee/Chandler, TX
    replied
    Originally posted by tbirdtbird View Post
    OK, assuming no burs or gouges, then take the same measurements on the crank flange...
    ie
    concentricity and runout
    This picture is the "runout" of the crank flange.
    IMG_20181106_091629A.jpg
    If you click on the image you should get a full-size view. You will see that there are three numbers written at each location where I measured the runout. For three of the locations, those numbers were all zero, but at the fourth, they were 0, -2, and -4 (thousandths) measured from the center to the outer edge.

    I do not have the concentricity measurements for the flange nor the flywheel, and it will be this weekend before I can get back to it.

    Originally posted by tbirdtbird View Post
    I rather doubt it is the flange at fault, but rather the FW

    When you say 'contact area' you mean where the disc contacts I presume
    Yes.

    Originally posted by tbirdtbird View Post
    I cannot make out the numbers written on the flange.

    Summary, we need 2 sets of measurements, one set is concentricity and runout with FW mounted, and torqued up,
    the other with the FW off thus concentricity and runout of flange
    Will get in a few days.

    Leave a comment:


  • tbirdtbird
    replied
    OK, assuming no burs or gouges, then take the same measurements on the crank flange...
    ie
    concentricity and runout

    I rather doubt it is the flange at fault, but rather the FW

    When you say 'contact area' you mean where the disc contacts I presume

    I cannot make out the numbers written on the flange.

    Summary, we need 2 sets of measurements, one set is concentricity and runout with FW mounted, and torqued up,
    the other with the FW off thus concentricity and runout of flange

    Leave a comment:

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