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Found pics of what I started with

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  • #26
    So today I did a bunch of melding on the 37 "C word" today. Got a lot accomplished as far as the body goes. The tail end is giving me fits, but I threw my hands up till 2mrw...

    So I came home and drank a few beers and just walked around the yard. Measured, thought, stared at, planned, figured, until I have officially called it a night. So that begs couple questions (one of which will help determine which way I go on a couple of the builds.

    1. As learning curve on melding the "C" body today(which is retrofitting to a model A chassis) awe, and staring at the 35 and 39(which both are sitting on assumed chassis they came off of from the factory) at home I raised a question in my logic... is it:
    A. Better to loosely bolt the body to a chassis, (that I'm assuming is square and plan to check later when I start frame mods) and meld it together with a rough estimate of where its supposed to be.
    Or...
    B. Transport the body separately on a trailer, square it on the shop floor with Jack's and straps in sections until it's as square as I can make, and then fit back over the frame and bolted down.
    ...?

    2. What is this? A modified part, yes I know, but, what is it for? It is welded to the wishbone for the rear suspension. The chassis comes back as a 1932 model A. And the rear wishbones bolt to the banjo flange. Someone re-routed the wishbones to outside the frame rails to this torsion set up.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by STEBS; 02-02-2020, 03:13 AM.

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    • #27
      Good Morning Stebs
      That is a shock absorber that is in the picture.
      By looking at all the other pictures you have. That is an early 1928 frame.

      Looks like you’re having fun.
      Keep up the good work
      Twiss Collector Car Parts

      Comment


      • #28
        The wishbone was welded to the shock absorber arm. Hmmmm
        3 ~ Tudor's
        Henry Ford said
        "It's all nuts and bolts"


        Mitch's Auto Service ctr

        Comment


        • #29
          Based of y'alls input, I did some research and found they are haudaille shock absorbers.

          Did they work as designed?
          Do they work well, or is it better to design a regular gas filled shock?

          If for this particular project I decided to ditch them, would it be perfect for keeping around for the tracked snowmobile model T I'm trying to build?

          Comment


          • #30
            Here are some other shock options from our technical forum

            https://www.vintagefordforum.com/for...p-all-cars-too

            https://www.vintagefordforum.com/for...riction-shocks

            https://www.vintagefordforum.com/for...model-a-shocks

            https://www.vintagefordforum.com/for...eedster-shocks
            3 ~ Tudor's
            Henry Ford said
            "It's all nuts and bolts"


            Mitch's Auto Service ctr

            Comment


            • #31
              I'm definitely going to check into that stipes for sure. That's not a bad price, but they are currently sold out so I'll wait that one out for now until they have more.

              Either way I feel like I'm going to reserve that shock at up for the snowmobile build as it will probably be the only one of the 4 builds that will utilize mostly stock and/era parts. So I will have plenty on hand that I ditch from the other builds as I upgrade their drivetrain and frame.

              The other model a frame has these shocks too so there's extra even for the front and rear axle.

              As I stared at everything last night I realized that I'm going to tweak my puzzle a little bit(which I do often, I've swapped multiple body parts on multiple chassis and then decided something completely different and pulled it off)the rear axle from the 35 chassis, which I'm lead to believe that the 35 body may be back on its original chassis, but its getting up graded to the 93 f150 drivetrain. So I want to donor the 35 banjo housing to 1 of the model a frames. And use one of those model a banjo for the rear float axle since I would already have donor wishbones and they have already been made to run with no driveline. And that's where the snowmobile will start to take shape.

              The frame will get extended to accommodate the rear axle, and the front axle looks to be period correct as well with out much molestation over the years. I have a lead on a 26 tall T body for a good price. Funds just aren't there right now. But it's about how I want the build to go. A sedan type A or T body with a bed behind. A light duty gen pole set up built into the bed. Either a flathead 4, or I'd like to find maybe a small mechanical diesel that I could mate to a t19 2wd trans that I have. Build a set of tracks, and skids for the front that I want both to be removable during summer months in the mountains. The front A axle even had mechanical lever brakes so I could run an individual hand brake for the front axle alone to lock the tire and wheel to skid. Seating for 4. Heat, wipers, radio, cupholders, toolbox and stow away storage compartments. And that will be my perfect rig to have for the mountains.

              but to quote JDupuis above, how were you able to determine the year. I've been researching little tell tales here and there to help identify, but you were able to identify by just some pictures?

              Which also begs the question is which one did you state was 28? There are 2 chassis. If it's the one I pictured above with the welded shock/wishbone, that will mean that I still need to identify the other chassis so I can help differentiate which parts are going to go to which builds.

              I believe this other chassis (the one that is mostly complete minus the 1 hub, which will be at the post office in the morning 😃😎🍺) to be 1929. It too has those haudaille shocks but with no levers attached. Its suspension front and rear is more intact than the chassis above which has modified wishbones. The serial number of this other chassis is *A2135237* which I believe to be Feb 1929.

              I can go get the serial of the one pictured above if needed?

              Comment


              • #32
                Never mind, I just went out and got it anyway. Took a picture. This is the chassis with the welded wishbone.

                *A424278*

                20200202_190130.jpg

                Edit* I looked up does September of 28 sound correct?
                Last edited by STEBS; 02-02-2020, 08:10 PM.

                Comment


                • #33
                  Originally posted by STEBS View Post
                  I looked up does September of 28 sound correct?
                  Yep that works

                  Here is an article on the evolution of the A frame.

                  https://www.vintagefordforum.com/art...-steve-plucker

                  Stipe shocks are the best but they never seem to be in stock anymore. I guess calling there may be your best bet, but you have time
                  3 ~ Tudor's
                  Henry Ford said
                  "It's all nuts and bolts"


                  Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                  Comment


                  • #34
                    Stebs, I think for your builds, if even you need shockers on a snowmobile, just go cheap telescopics.

                    The rebuilt houdailles are for the restorers for period correctness..

                    Interesting pic on the shock welded to the wishbone.

                    Looks like an old hot rodder decided this is the way to go, now where is my sawzall and welder?..

                    I would like to see a longer shot on the wishbone, it looks like they relocated the shock to mid chassis and ran the wishbone /radius rod ..back? or is it forward to the front?

                    We may be able to start a hotrod farmer fix thread

                    Comment


                    • #35
                      Originally posted by pooch View Post
                      The rebuilt houdailles are for the restorers for period correctness..
                      Yep you don’t see moders using these. I guess that is how you spell it.. lol
                      3 ~ Tudor's
                      Henry Ford said
                      "It's all nuts and bolts"


                      Mitch's Auto Service ctr

                      Comment


                      • #36
                        Good Morning STEBS
                        I was able to do an educated guess at the age of the frame just by looking at it.
                        The centre cross member is the big tell.
                        As you become more acquainted with these old parts, you will also pick up on the differences of the years.

                        Keep having fun.
                        Twiss Collector Car Parts

                        Comment


                        • #37
                          Also if the lump of wood was not there, it should show a solid front engine mount/front crossmember too.

                          I can see where the PO mounted the houdaille now.

                          The way he did is rough looking , but certainly inventive.

                          He may have even thought the shocks may give some damping to his split radius rod fabrication.

                          Probably would even at that length of leverage.

                          And cheap, he had all the parts there, nothing to buy.

                          Comment


                          • #38
                            Originally posted by pooch View Post
                            Also if the lump of wood was not there, it should show a solid front engine mount/front crossmember too.

                            I can see where the PO mounted the houdaille now.

                            The way he did is rough looking , but certainly inventive.

                            He may have even thought the shocks may give some damping to his split radius rod fabrication.

                            Probably would even at that length of leverage.

                            And cheap, he had all the parts there, nothing to buy.
                            Which is part of the reason I contemplated using this set up for the rear floating axle of the track drive. I would think it would help aid in downward traction over the snow as upon learning about their true function, like you said, it's kind of inventive if not kind of intriguing to look more into it.

                            I can still get more angles and pics if needed or wanted.


                            Comment


                            • #39
                              Originally posted by JDupuis View Post
                              Good Morning STEBS
                              I was able to do an educated guess at the age of the frame just by looking at it.
                              The centre cross member is the big tell.
                              As you become more acquainted with these old parts, you will also pick up on the differences of the years.

                              Keep having fun.
                              I have definitely picked up and read up on a few so far. It's kind of cool learning all the little this'its and that's'its about original design methods. Especially when compared to what can be accomplished with today's technology.

                              It's kind of like the legos I had when I kid. Except this is the adult version and I'm still having a blast peicing together creation from nothing. I'm having so much fun with every one of these cars!

                              Comment


                              • #40
                                Update: the 28 model hub came in the mail this morning. All the way from Canada to new mexico lol.

                                Ordered new bearings and a seal, they will be in 2mrw morning. If the weather wasn't supposed to be 26 degrees, 30mph winds, snow and rain I'd probably spend lunch break putting it on, but that may have to wait a couple days unfortunately.

                                After that is on, I can start getting the front suspension kind of set up for mocking and measuring as well as jotting down what ever I will need to complete steering up to a gear box. I intend to stay with the original drum brake set up. Update the shoes and springs, bushings, grease points etc. In the meantime I can get measurements on the frame as far as how much metal I will need to buy for the frame addition to accommodate the dual rear axles and a few to strengthen the front frame section. Hopefully that will all come later this week.

                                For now I've got the 37C body mostly melded back together. Its acting as my learning curve when I start melding the 35 and 39 Tudor bodies. It took me a few minutes to remember the technique but I'm honing it back in the more I do it. but it's now in 2 halves instead of 4 sections. Front firewall is back together just needs some dressing and hammy/dolly work. And the back is ready to be seamed but the rear roll pan/bumper is giving me mad fits with how tweaked it is.

                                I can only imagine what I'm going to be up against when I start the 35 and 39 this next week.... they have more to account for like a roof, and full doors. Not just a bottom tub with no pillars or roof like the 37. I may have to call a favor of a buddy and have him bring over his porta power for one day.

                                More progress to come later this week.

                                Comment


                                • #41
                                  Originally posted by STEBS View Post

                                  Which is part of the reason I contemplated using this set up for the rear floating axle of the track drive. I would think it would help aid in downward traction over the snow as upon learning about their true function, like you said, it's kind of inventive if not kind of intriguing to look more into it.

                                  I can still get more angles and pics if needed or wanted.

                                  Stebs, when you split the rear radius rods out to the chassis, they are in binding motion when in a twisting motion.

                                  As a modifier, this took me a while to contemplate why.

                                  It is because the radius rods are bolted to the diff/backing plates and the diff housing is a solid structure, it cannot twist.

                                  So when the chassis traverses uneven ground from side to side, there is an enormous binding and something eventually breaks.

                                  Split wishbones at the front will only work on an I-beam axle, as it twists, a tube front axle will break at its weakest point.

                                  Henry designed the front wishbones at a central ball, which works fine and the rear radius rods only triangulate the torque tube, so all movement is pivoted on the clam shell.

                                  You basically have to fabricate movable joints on the rear to stop breakage.

                                  And YES, I would like more pics on the houdaille to radius rod setup, and if you don't mind, I would like it to be the first post in a new topic which may be called "hotrodder's inventiveness"

                                  Comment


                                  • #42
                                    Originally posted by pooch View Post

                                    Stebs, when you split the rear radius rods out to the chassis, they are in binding motion when in a twisting motion.

                                    As a modifier, this took me a while to contemplate why.

                                    It is because the radius rods are bolted to the diff/backing plates and the diff housing is a solid structure, it cannot twist.

                                    So when the chassis traverses uneven ground from side to side, there is an enormous binding and something eventually breaks.

                                    Split wishbones at the front will only work on an I-beam axle, as it twists, a tube front axle will break at its weakest point.

                                    Henry designed the front wishbones at a central ball, which works fine and the rear radius rods only triangulate the torque tube, so all movement is pivoted on the clam shell.

                                    You basically have to fabricate movable joints on the rear to stop breakage.
                                    You prove a very valid point, I hadn't thought about the geometry in that way. Now the other 29 chassis has the central pivot ball front and rear but the rear radius arm appears to be the exact same design, just going to the middle ball instead of outside the frame rails. And it is made with a custom cross member for the front and rear pivot balls. The front axle has a lever type pivot for I'm assuming being pulled as a trailer. I really think both of these were converted to be something like hay trailer pups. And at some point they stole the front axle from the 28 along with both front leaf springs to install on a single axle trailer (I'm just guessing)

                                    I had kind of envisioned the bar acting like a ladder bar/traction bar set up, but it seems like I need to research the geometry a little more.


                                    Can anyone elaborate the difference between a wishbone and a radius rod? I've hear them used in different context so far and I'd like to be on the same page as I thought they were kind of the same thing just different terminology.


                                    Originally posted by pooch View Post
                                    And YES, I would like more pics on the houdaille to radius rod setup, and if you don't mind, I would like it to be the first post in a new topic which may be called "hotrodder's inventiveness"
                                    Consider it done lol


                                    Last edited by STEBS; 02-04-2020, 11:28 AM.

                                    Comment


                                    • #43
                                      The front rods that originally went to the bellhousing is called a wishbone, as that is the shape of it, and it locates the front axle and stops it moving fore/aft and sideways, and with the ball in the middle, the axles ends can up and down on each side without binding.

                                      When you split the wishbone and move it out to the chassis, the whole setup acts like a giant sway bar.

                                      A sway bar in a modern with independent suspension can twist, it is just like a coil spring, only in a big U shape, same as a torsion bar twists to accommodate body roll.

                                      The front I-beam axle does twist, so split bones on the front will work, they are actually beneficial in rodding , as said , because there is no need then for a front sway bar.

                                      The rods at the rear are called radius rods, in original design, they do nothing but strengthen the rear in a triangulation, as they are fixed to the backing plates and the torque tube.

                                      They do not locate anything in movement as the front does.

                                      You could in fact, remove the rear radius rods entirely and the car would still drive, albeit very carefully, as all acceleration and braking forces would be loaded onto the single joint at the torque tube to pinion/banjo joint.

                                      The diff housing cannot twist, so when the rods are moved out to the chassis, this again makes a giant sway bar in design, and when the chassis twists when it goes over uneven ground, ie, when one rear wheel is up and the opposite front wheel is up, as when traversing a driveway on an angle, the rear end and rods are solidly fixed, so something has to give.

                                      After a while the original rods will fatigue and break at either end joint.

                                      This why most rods have 4 bar joints or hairpins.

                                      My rod uses a wishbone at front , but I have 4 radius rods on rear, to make it a 4 link.

                                      I don't like standard 4 bars/hairpins, as they are still poor design where they attach to the chassis.

                                      Typically they have hard plastic bushes, and the metal sleeves, so they still bind on uneven wheel ups/downs.

                                      And typically they have threaded ends, and when in binding motion, one side is going into overtighten stress, which it cannot do and twists the whole 4 bar/hairpin on itself.

                                      The other side, goes into loosen stress, and mostly this action causes the threaded joint to loosen off.

                                      Rose joints can be used, but these wear out fast as they are open to dust.

                                      I use ball joints, two at the front to chassis, and four at the rear.

                                      So far, it is working perfectly and looks period hotrod correct.

                                      You can get away with a 3 link rear, where the joints are made movable at the backing plates and a third rod is bolted to the top of the diff housing near the middle and goes forward to a joint around the middle crossmember.

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                                      • #44
                                        Thinking back to my 4 wheeling and rock climbing days, everything you said made perfect sense. And I can see now where the design would be flawed.

                                        I guess it's back to the drawing board for that one. I would like to do even deeper research on the matter tho. I would like to find some sort of way to utilize these shocks in the snomobile build in some way shape or form.

                                        A couple ideas already come to mind. From utilizing them for a track tensioner to its original intended purpose: a shock. Either way I will do more R+D while the weather is so crappy out.


                                        I got your pics posted btw. Just as you asked.

                                        Comment


                                        • #45
                                          Stebs, I very much doubt whether the shocks are still serviceable.

                                          Ones that look much better than these are even not.

                                          In other words, they are stuffed.

                                          Cool to incorporate them into a build as a bearing of some sort, but don't expect them to be usable as a damper.

                                          Comment


                                          • #46
                                            STEBS I agree with Jay, any make or model should have a place here due to "creative genius" displayed by guys like you, I like those Chevy cars also, every make and model car has something to be admired. Maybe we need a "Rat Rod Forum" it would fit in with the fords on here as many ford parts are used in them no matter what the body ends up as. I have a nephew that lives in Arizona, he is always sending me pictures of cars (or what's left of them) he and his wife find while hiking, most of the bodies have been shot just like yours, is that how the residents put these old cars out of their misery? Or is it their way of saying they really hated this car before they dumped it? It might be a business idea selling bullet hole repair kits, you could supply them in different calibers. Keep up the great work you are truly an inspiration.
                                            "We are all born ignorant, but one must work very hard to remain stupid".
                                            - Ben Franklin

                                            Comment


                                            • #47
                                              Originally posted by pooch View Post
                                              Stebs, I very much doubt whether the shocks are still serviceable.

                                              Ones that look much better than these are even not.

                                              In other words, they are stuffed.

                                              Cool to incorporate them into a build as a bearing of some sort, but don't expect them to be usable as a damper.
                                              There must be a misconception lol. I would only use these for mock up purposes and later swap them for stipes. I'm with you, I dought very seriously that these still work at all other than for mock up purposes.

                                              Comment


                                              • #48
                                                Originally posted by Bobm90 View Post
                                                STEBS I agree with Jay, any make or model should have a place here due to "creative genius" displayed by guys like you, I like those Chevy cars also, every make and model car has something to be admired. Maybe we need a "Rat Rod Forum" it would fit in with the fords on here as many ford parts are used in them no matter what the body ends up as. I have a nephew that lives in Arizona, he is always sending me pictures of cars (or what's left of them) he and his wife find while hiking, most of the bodies have been shot just like yours, is that how the residents put these old cars out of their misery? Or is it their way of saying they really hated this car before they dumped it? It might be a business idea selling bullet hole repair kits, you could supply them in different calibers. Keep up the great work you are truly an inspiration.
                                                Thank you sir, I dont know if it's that I'm inspiring, or just a completely hard headed and cheap bastard 😉

                                                But I will take the compliments none the less! 🍺

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